Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Autonomous cars..

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> General Bike Chat Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

A100man
World Chat Champion



Joined: 19 Aug 2013
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:36 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Autonomous cars.. Reply with quote

Listening to a news article this morning got me thinking..

..how soon would it be before mischief makers in other vehicles
muck about to set-off collision avoid sensors etc.. on these vehicles. Thinking
____________________
Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750

Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

xX-Alex-Xx
World Chat Champion



Joined: 12 Sep 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:49 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Re: Autonomous cars.. Reply with quote

A100man wrote:
Listening to a news article this morning got me thinking..

..how soon would it be before mischief makers in other vehicles
muck about to set-off collision avoid sensors etc.. on these vehicles. Thinking


You can already do this with road signs:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/09/hacking-street-signs-with-stickers-could-confuse-self-driving-cars/

Even the moon can:

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/tesla-autopilot-system-mistakes-moon-for-traffic-light-slowing-car-down-v6fe32431


There has to be a point somewhere that the car you're in will decide to crash itself rather than hitting another object. Cue Trolley Problem....
____________________
DILLIGAF
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Polarbear
Super Spammer



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:05 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Re: Autonomous cars.. Reply with quote

A100man wrote:
Listening to a news article this morning got me thinking..

..how soon would it be before mischief makers in other vehicles
muck about to set-off collision avoid sensors etc.. on these vehicles. Thinking


Not just people in other vehicles. What about an internet craze of jumping in from to vehicles to set their auto stop off. Seeing how close to you you can get them or causing a pile up with people too close behind, The fun could be endless. Rolling Eyes
____________________
Triumph Trophy Launch Edition
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Hong Kong Phooey
World Chat Champion



Joined: 30 Apr 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:50 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you know for sure that the spec. of any particular model had auto braking, or that the sensor was clean and the car hadn't thrown an 'autobraking malfunction' warning to the driver?

It's a very risky game to play for very little reward. I expect it to be played once or twice before the gene pool is trimmed accordingly.

I've heard tales of plastic bags causing the car to literally and metaphorically go full retard, and the driver behind presumed it was an insurance scam.

On balance though, they'll probably save more lives than cause deaths, as the meat bag behind the wheel is increasingly engaged in social media or some other non-driving task to look down the bonnet as often as they should.
____________________
'81 CG125, '97 FZS600 : '99 CBR600F4, '09 KTM RC8
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

ThunderGuts
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:30 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Issues with pile-ups etc.. shouldn't actually be a problem once most/all of the vehicles are autonomous though. That said, can't see that coming anytime soon.

I find the who self-pilot vehicle a bit unnerving. In theory it should be great of course; it's a computer, it can accurately and quickly determine the best course of action based on the variables it is presented with. The biggest issue, as alluded to above, is how reliable those inputs are. Sensors can fail, be confused (deliberately or accidentally), that's without the possibility of hacking or other software issues. If the "driver" is actively monitoring the situation it may help, but not by much as the chances are it'll all be over before the human realises something has gone wrong (and that assumes they're paying full attention, which is unlikely - once the "driver" is comfortable with the vehicle, they'll probably revert to FaceStalk / WhatsCrap / Twatter / Instascam etc..).
____________________
TG.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Bhud
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Oct 2018
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:35 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a problem:

https://www.thoughtco.com/would-you-kill-one-person-to-save-five-4045377
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

xX-Alex-Xx
World Chat Champion



Joined: 12 Sep 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:36 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:


In theory it should be great of course; it's a computer, it can accurately and quickly determine the best course of action based on the variables it is presented with. The biggest issue, as alluded to above, is how reliable those inputs are.


It's not just that, I consider myself a very judge of what people are going to do next on the road, I doubt a car would ever reasonably be able to do that based on slight inputs like the car ahead subtley altering lane position or similar. I don't see self-driving cars being anything more than reactive for some time yet.
____________________
DILLIGAF
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

LustyLew
World Chat Champion



Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:41 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:


I've heard tales of plastic bags causing the car to literally and metaphorically go full retard, and the driver behind presumed it was an insurance scam.


Indeed, my Skoda has gone full retard randomly a few times due to the "safety" features. Lane Assist picks up all sorts of marks on the roads and tries to move me. Brake Assist has on a few occasions slammed the anchors on for no reason. I can only assume the sensors have assumed something is a imminent danger. Thinking

Skoda also make it a PITA to turn them off.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

ThunderGuts
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:57 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
ThunderGuts wrote:


In theory it should be great of course; it's a computer, it can accurately and quickly determine the best course of action based on the variables it is presented with. The biggest issue, as alluded to above, is how reliable those inputs are.


It's not just that, I consider myself a very judge of what people are going to do next on the road, I doubt a car would ever reasonably be able to do that based on slight inputs like the car ahead subtley altering lane position or similar. I don't see self-driving cars being anything more than reactive for some time yet.


I'm not so sure; your judgements aren't based on extra-sensory capability (unless you tell me otherwise) but rather an accrued understanding of indications which manifest into behaviours, e.g. someone slowing slightly before a junction might suggest they're going to turn, or moving closer to the centreline might indicate they're considering an overtake. I don't see why a computer could make those same judgements and indeed pool an even greater amount of effective "experience"?

What a computer would struggle more with though might be more subtle things, like someone stabbing at a phone showing a nav screen, or kids flying around in the back causing a distraction.

As I said, in theory the computer can make a good decision, but what it can't do is interpolate where it doesn't have the facts, something the human brain can do (albeit not always with the correct outcome "I was sure they weren't going to do that").
____________________
TG.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

xX-Alex-Xx
World Chat Champion



Joined: 12 Sep 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:57 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

This will be an interesting debate:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60126014



Major legal changes needed for driverless car era

Human drivers should not be legally accountable for road safety in the era of autonomous cars, a report says.

In these cars, the driver should be redefined as a "user-in-charge", with very different legal responsibilities, according to the law commissions for England and Wales, and Scotland.

____________________
DILLIGAF
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:48 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The human fuckwit factor is still real, even at the design stage.

My Dads Jag E-type has a very reduced view out of the rear window. That's ok though because it has a superb reversing camera.

It also has reversing sensors.

If the reversing sensors are triggered, a beeper sounds and a message is displayed across the middle of the screen warning you to take care when reversing. Unfortunately, the message totally obstructs the image from the reversing camera and will not go away until whatever is triggering the parking sensor is out of range.

He has already reversed into two cars as a result of this.* Two safety systems working together to make you crash.

I suppose the main issue will be how does it recognise a failure state and what happens in that situation? My suspicion is it will be much like traction control and ABS. In that it stops working beeps and a light comes on on the dash saying it's not working. As you plough through a hedge or bus queue.


*Yes, he also has side mirrors and I did dare to mention this but I won't do again!
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:55 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:

I'm not so sure; your judgements aren't based on extra-sensory capability (unless you tell me otherwise) but rather an accrued understanding of indications which manifest into behaviours, e.g. someone slowing slightly before a junction might suggest they're going to turn, or moving closer to the centreline might indicate they're considering an overtake. I don't see why a computer could make those same judgements and indeed pool an even greater amount of effective "experience"?


Here's the rub. You need to make some autonomous vehicles slightly aggressive and some slightly cautious.

There are cautious drivers and aggressive drivers. So taking the example of pulling out of a junction. When there is a car coming along the main road, at a certain point, some drivers will wait for it to pass and some will accelerate quickly to get out ahead of it. If a computer learns and tries to do what the average driver does, they will crash the car.

So you have to incorporate a randomness factor in the vehicles behaviour and the vehicle needs to behave like either one or other sort of driver, not both and definitely not halfway between them.

It's tempting to say they should all behave cautiously, but I think the roads would actually grind to a halt if they did and there would be massive queues at roundabouts. You sometimes need an aggressive driver to break the traffic flow on a roundabout where one road is carrying more traffic than the others.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

xX-Alex-Xx
World Chat Champion



Joined: 12 Sep 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:02 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
It's tempting to say they should all behave cautiously, but I think the roads would actually grind to a halt if they did and there would be massive queues at roundabouts. You sometimes need an aggressive driver to break the traffic flow on a roundabout where one road is carrying more traffic than the others.


Exactly this. Litreally yesterday, my wife nearly crashed into the side of a car while merging onto a dual carriageway as the car in the left lane was where we needed to be, so she braked and so did the other car at the same time so we stayed level with each other. It was only the wife hitting the accelerator that got us in front of the car and onto the dual carriageway before we would have hit the barrier.
____________________
DILLIGAF
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Bhud
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Oct 2018
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:07 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bike is highly unlikely to have more than 1 "occupant".

A car can have up to 4 or 5 occupants.

You're an AI and you're about to crash, and the crash is unavoidable, and you can only choose between crashing into a car or a bike. Your vehicle has the highest priority humans inside it, especially the one in the front. If you crash into another electric car, there's a possibility that everyone will go up in a ball of flame. Both your car and the other. Therefore, it makes sense to directly and purposely ram the bike, right? Minimal damage, all occupants safe and unharmed. The rider will die, but that's all taken care of by insurance and is not the AI's concern.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:36 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
A bike is highly unlikely to have more than 1 "occupant".

A car can have up to 4 or 5 occupants.

You're an AI and you're about to crash, and the crash is unavoidable, and you can only choose between crashing into a car or a bike. Your vehicle has the highest priority humans inside it, especially the one in the front. If you crash into another electric car, there's a possibility that everyone will go up in a ball of flame. Both your car and the other. Therefore, it makes sense to directly and purposely ram the bike, right? Minimal damage, all occupants safe and unharmed. The rider will die, but that's all taken care of by insurance and is not the AI's concern.


That's dangerously close to Asimov's first law. You know, that Asimov that you said wasn't relevant?

The differnence is that teh robot in Azimov's universe would have been driven to cataplexy by the injury to the person it chose over the others.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

ThunderGuts
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:37 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:

Here's the rub. You need to make some autonomous vehicles slightly aggressive and some slightly cautious.

There are cautious drivers and aggressive drivers. So taking the example of pulling out of a junction. When there is a car coming along the main road, at a certain point, some drivers will wait for it to pass and some will accelerate quickly to get out ahead of it. If a computer learns and tries to do what the average driver does, they will crash the car.

So you have to incorporate a randomness factor in the vehicles behaviour and the vehicle needs to behave like either one or other sort of driver, not both and definitely not halfway between them.

It's tempting to say they should all behave cautiously, but I think the roads would actually grind to a halt if they did and there would be massive queues at roundabouts. You sometimes need an aggressive driver to break the traffic flow on a roundabout where one road is carrying more traffic than the others.


I'm not so sure about this; that disparity exists because of people's confidence levels, ability to judge speed/distance and their understanding of their vehicle's capabilities. With appropriate sensors (which an autonomous car would have) it would know exactly how much time it'll take the approaching car to arrive and would either wait or go in a very binary fashion. You'd have no dawdling but nor would you have vehicles pulling out with insufficient space/time causing the approaching vehicle to change speed/direction to compensate.

In theory (yes, that word again) the vehicles would communicate their positions, speeds, intentions etc. with each other and could make minute adjustments to optimise traffic flow. Obvious example is on a motorway, vehicle in lane 1 detects a merging vehicle, reduces speed by 2mph to allow that vehicle to smoothly merge, rather than maintaining the same speed, then the merging vehicle having to squeeze in and causing warning lights in the following vehicle.
____________________
TG.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:24 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two posts so far on this thread giving me the disturbing impression that people think traffic travelling on a motorway is somehow required to adjust their speed to facilitate merging of traffic joining from a slip road...

This is all down to the joining traffic, they have to give way to traffic on the motorway. If this means stopping when they get to the end of the sliproad because there is no space to merge, that's what has to happen. If you're driving alongside me on a sliproad when I'm in lane 1 and there's traffic alongside me, you're either gong to have to speed up or slow down. If you haven't found yourself a space before you run out of sliproad, there's no point sounding your horn at me, it's you that's wrong.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Polarbear
Super Spammer



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:56 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

LustyLew wrote:

Indeed, my Skoda has gone full retard randomly a few times due to the "safety" features. Lane Assist picks up all sorts of marks on the roads and tries to move me. Brake Assist has on a few occasions slammed the anchors on for no reason. I can only assume the sensors have assumed something is a imminent danger. Thinking

Skoda also make it a PITA to turn them off.


Never having driven a car with lane assist, how do you mean, tries to move you? Does it physically drive back into the lane or nudge the steering wheel or what? I can see it being very distracting.
____________________
Triumph Trophy Launch Edition
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Freddyfruitba...
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 May 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 18:34 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an issue I can forsee, especially in fairly urban areas.

As we know (especially after the recent Highway Code changes), pedestrians are accorded highest safety priority on the roads; that means that if a human steps off the pavement in front of an autonomous car, then the car will jam on the anchors. So, won't be long before pedestrians work out that all they need to do cross a busy road is simply step out. Their own personal zebra crossing. Take that to its logical conclusion and in reasonably busy places with lots of pedestrians, the traffic will simply grind to a halt. Unless you put fences alongside every pavement, how do you stop that from happening?
____________________
KC100->CB100N->CB250RS--------->DL650AL2->R1200RS->R1250RS
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:16 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The major sticking point that no one wants to talk about is mixing autonomous cars with numpties on non-uniform roads.

Build and maintain a motorway exclusively for robot taxis then you can leverage inter-vehicle communications and you'd have a fluid mesh-network flowing down the road.

In current year we can't even maintain the roads we have nor provide enough charging points for the existing EV vehicles. This also calls back to other discussions on AI: you either need the vehicle to be smarter than existing organic drivers or present it with a simplified and predictable system to traverse.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Shaft
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Dec 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:07 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
LustyLew wrote:

Indeed, my Skoda has gone full retard randomly a few times due to the "safety" features. Lane Assist picks up all sorts of marks on the roads and tries to move me. Brake Assist has on a few occasions slammed the anchors on for no reason. I can only assume the sensors have assumed something is a imminent danger. Thinking

Skoda also make it a PITA to turn them off.


Never having driven a car with lane assist, how do you mean, tries to move you? Does it physically drive back into the lane or nudge the steering wheel or what? I can see it being very distracting.


I've driven a couple of different variations, one that 'vibrated' the wheel if you inadvertently strayed out of your lane, another that gently applied opposite lock to try and move you back.

If you don't know it's there it is, to say the least, disconcerting and it can't differentiate between a genuine error on the part of the driver, or a considered manoeuvre.

For example, I was in a Peugeot on a dual carriageway and approaching a roundabout. Because I was the only vehicle on the road and I was pressing on, I straight lined the 'corner', which the car decided was me changing lanes without indicating and started pulsing the wheel, to the extent I thought I'd had a blow out, until I went back into my original lane and it stopped.

I didn't know the car had lane assist and it really threw me, luckily I found it also had an off switch, so that got pushed pronto.
____________________
Things get better with age; I'm close to being magnificent........
20 RE Interceptor, 83 Z1100A3, 83 GS650 Katana
WooHoo, I'm a Man Point Millionaire! https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=234035
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

grr666
Super Spammer



Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:11 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

My car has three levels of driver assist. On max it steers itself, vibrates the seat and beeps. On medium It doesn't steer
but does the other two and on minimum it just beeps when you cross a line without an indicator on. I have mine set to
beep only. It also has auto braking but thankfully it can be switched off and instead if you get what the system deems as a bit
close to another vehicle it beams a huge BRAKE!! message up on the HUD. I've had this flash BRAKE!! at me a few times
and would have likely had an incident had it slammed on the anchors. I learned to drive in London so I'm quite used to getting
a bit close to stuff. It also beeps the front parking sensors if I get too far up the car in fronts arse when crawling in traffic.
____________________
Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off. Thumbs Up
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Zen Dog
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:28 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Never having driven a car with lane assist, how do you mean, tries to move you? Does it physically drive back into the lane or nudge the steering wheel or what? I can see it being very distracting.


I had it on a Vauxhall courtesy car, and it tries to resist you turning the wheel to be able to cross the lane. You can force it but it feels like something is definitely wrong. The first time it happened I thought the power steering had broken or something and I was looking for the hard shoulder till I realised. I fucking hated it. And you could turn it off, but it would come back on every time you started the car. No.

My fundamental problem with the AI driving thing (and lane assist), is that either I'm in control of the vehicle (practically and legally), or I'm not. I'm not up for halfway houses. If I'm in control, during normal driving, I want to be in total control, and I want automatic assistance to kick in only when conditions are extreme, like ABS, airbags etc. If the AI is in control, I don't want to be responsible for what it's doing, at all. I want to go to sleep in the back.

A situation where the AI is supposed to drive, and the driver is supposed to watch it like a hawk in case it does something stupid, is just the worst of both worlds. There's no way I could concentrate on watching the AI drive the car for hours at a time, even if I wanted to.
____________________
Current - '94 VFR750FR, '00 VFR800FI Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011


Last edited by Zen Dog on 23:31 - 26 Jan 2022; edited 1 time in total
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:31 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
you can leverage inter-vehicle communications

Already happening with V2X or Vehicle to Everything communication.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

ThunderGuts
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:28 - 27 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Two posts so far on this thread giving me the disturbing impression that people think traffic travelling on a motorway is somehow required to adjust their speed to facilitate merging of traffic joining from a slip road...

This is all down to the joining traffic, they have to give way to traffic on the motorway. If this means stopping when they get to the end of the sliproad because there is no space to merge, that's what has to happen. If you're driving alongside me on a sliproad when I'm in lane 1 and there's traffic alongside me, you're either gong to have to speed up or slow down. If you haven't found yourself a space before you run out of sliproad, there's no point sounding your horn at me, it's you that's wrong.


I don't disagree, but if it were machines rather than humans driving, a more optimum net traffic flow could probably be achieved with subtle variations to speed from vehicles already on the motorway. Effectively like micro-scale variable speed limits.
____________________
TG.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 2 years, 61 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> General Bike Chat All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.12 Sec - Server Load: 0.6 - MySQL Queries: 17 - Page Size: 148.45 Kb