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America - The land of the --------?

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: America - The land of the --------? Reply with quote

OK, we've had multiple shootings and still America would rather allow guns than try to stop people being shot - simplistic view.

Now we have abortion being made illegal and what a mess it is.

It's another emotive subject and whichever way you look there are rights and wrongs that are open to debate. Is a fetus classed as a being or just a bunch of cells. Who has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body, etc. etc.

From an outside point of view from someone who has never had to make any sort of decision like that I would say the dangers of back street illegal abortions totally outweigh the plusses of stopping the murder of the fetus (inflammitary words used on purpose).

I really never thought USA would go down the route Catholic Ireland did with all it's associatedproblems. So how do you resolve this one?

Oh, and a picture that sort of rankled with me a bit. The pro abortionist waving a poster that says 'Abortion is a human right'. Hmm, obviously not for the baby though?

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/6799/production/_125612562_microsoftteams-image-4.png
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

as far as i can tell abortions arent being banned. the choice is being given to individual states on whether or not to allow them.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

13 of those states had trigger laws in place that banned abortion immediately after thenzupreme court decisio n was announced. Other states also have laws drafted ready to be passed.

Loads of abortion clinics had to immediately close with no warning.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
13 of those states had trigger laws in place that banned abortion immediately after thenzupreme court decisio n was announced. Other states also have laws drafted ready to be passed.

Loads of abortion clinics had to immediately close with no warning.


Huh? You say trigger laws were in place yet the clinics had no warning?! Make your mind up Rolling Eyes

As to v mentioned it is a bit disingenuous to say the Supreme Court banned abortions. They announced a ruling that led to some states banning abortion...

But wait! It's not even as clear cut as that. If you delve into the actual "trigger laws" all of them allow for abortion for sake of medical emergency and some of them even go as far as rape and incest:

CNN: 13 states have passed so-called 'trigger laws,' bans designed to go into effect if Roe v. Wade is overturned

What's really changed? In some states you can't get elective abortions on your doorstep. Still can't be hassled with kids but really can't give up unprotected sex? No problem! If you've got a job with health insurance they're more than happy to fly you to a state that'll help you out. No health insurance? California reckons they'll stump up the money to fly you in.

More regional autonomy and a slight inconvenience to your decadent lifestyle... OMG that's a reason to start a riot mostly peaceful demonstration if I ever heard one Rolling Eyes
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^If that's actually how it stands, which I 'm not sure it does^^^

If in your words, nothing really has changed, then why are people getting so hot nder the collar about it?

The way I interpret it is that the court has said that abortion is unconstitutional and a lot of states are anti abortion so will implement the no abortion rule, some with some caveats (rape etc.) , some with none but it certainly doesn't seem a 'life goes on the same' to me.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

To correct you slightly, the supreme Court has said that the right to have an abortion isn't guaranteed by the constitution.

Federal law on it could override individual states laws.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Re: America - The land of the --------? Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Now we have abortion being made illegal

It's only illegal until they start school and at that point they're likely to get aborted by gunshot at school. (y)

nobby wrote:
Federal law on it could override individual stated laws.

There's no could about it, federal law overrides state laws every single time.

Add in the Supreme Court and Congress and the end result is a complicated mess which is far more complex than anything so simple as democrats vs republicans.

Easy-X wrote:
What's really changed?

Wait what? Laughing I'm not sure what articles you've been reading but the changes are pretty fucking significant as it's highlighted a huge flaw / hole / rainpal / loophole in the America legal system. That rainpal shaped hole in their legal system isn't anything new but the abortion ruling has bought it into the headlines and this is only the beginning.

Dis is gonna be good, especially the bonus bit where sleepy Joe doesn't understand what's going on around him.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best bit is one of the justices in the majority side and actually said the same view should apply to gay sex and gay marriage conveniently ignored the fact the Same principle would appy to interracial marriage.

Guess what.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are losing their shit because the plebs lives aren't being controlled by central government. You can't have states making their own rules to the benefit of citizens as you end up with ppl migrating from shit-holes like California and moving to Texas and Florida. Looks very bad for the whole Utopian project.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually they would be migrating in the opposite direction.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
People are losing their shit because the plebs lives aren't being controlled by central government. You can't have states making their own rules to the benefit of citizens as you end up with ppl migrating from shit-holes like California and moving to Texas and Florida. Looks very bad for the whole Utopian project.


Have you finally lost your mind?

The SCOTUS decision has nothing to do with benefit, it's the right wing element dancing to the tune of their masters and it's entirely about control. The decision benefits nobody except the hard right religious fundamentalists and it doesn't benefit them other than giving them a chance to gloat. It'll ruin many lives until it's put right again.

Honestly, they're no better than the Taliban - enforcing their distorted religious principles on others. Are you a fan of the Taliban as well?

If the pro-life people really cared about the unborn kids, they'd make sure they'd follow up after they're born. They don't. They'd also take gun control seriously - especially as kids are a large proportion of victims. They don't - they oppose gun control. All they're interested in is forcing their views on women.

They'll be after the LGBT community next. Germany in the 30s anyone?

Idiot.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Have you finally lost your mind?...Idiot.


You go girl! Laughing
It's America, not here. What's the big emotional scene about?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I be the one to ask the distasteful questions as usual?

Considering guns are mainly used by white men to kill themselves, and by black men to kill each other:
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/FT_22.01.26_GunDeaths_1.png?w=200https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Age_adjusted_US_suicide_rate_by_race_1981-2016.png/800px-Age_adjusted_US_suicide_rate_by_race_1981-2016.png

...and abortions are disproportionately taken by blacks, hispanics, and other ethnic minorities (I think some black women actually use it as birth control), plus I'd assume more liberals than conservatives:

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/395-351.png

Why are predominantly white republicans pro-gun and anti-abortion?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 25 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

People relocate from the pro-life to the pro-death states, pro-life states fail, everyone's happy surely?

Just proves my point: ppl losing their shit 'cos no central control. Wow, is thinking for yourself that dangerous? No, no... it's "Oh Joe, govern me harder!"
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:19 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Are you a fan of the Taliban as well?


I wasn't till now but given you've all but mentioned Hitler I'll re-evaluate them Wink
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder what will happen when the right wing circle jerkers realise that their 'pro-life' stance has fucked up their chances of breeding using IVF in states with legislation like Texas. Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:
I wonder what will happen when the right wing circle jerkers realise that their 'pro-life' stance has fucked up their chances of breeding using IVF in states with legislation like Texas. Laughing


Huh? You'll have to explain one to me Smile Anyway, save some money and adopt instead Wink
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The adoption argument was key to the abortion debate they had a year or so back, you'd have institutions all over the place Neutral

One interesting thing I noticed when getting the stats above is the abortion rate in the US has been falling anyway...

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/styles/scale_900x720/public/images/381.apc_august_2019_rate.png?itok=DarahE_r
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 19:44 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
The decision benefits nobody except the hard right religious fundamentalists and it doesn't benefit them other than giving them a chance to gloat.


i'd say the unborn child benefits quite a bit from this decision.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

It;'s hardly a child, it's a collection of cells with no consciousness for at least the first 13 weeks and isn't viable until at least 26 weeks.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

to v or not to v wrote:
Islander wrote:
The decision benefits nobody except the hard right religious fundamentalists and it doesn't benefit them other than giving them a chance to gloat.


i'd say the unborn child benefits quite a bit from this decision.


You do realise that the majority of abortions take place when the foetus isn't even a foetus don't you? Something like 90% occur in the first 13 weeks when you'd be hard put to recognise it as human and where it doesn't have consciousness and that the majority of that 90% occur even earlier.

It's a specious argument. Late term abortions are rare and usually performed for medical reasons.

Or you could stick with the pro-life rhetoric and be ill informed.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:54 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it looks like the Taliban SCOTUS and the Hard right religious nutters have badly miscalculated on this.

Corporations that have said they'll pay for their employees to travel to get legal abortions and other medical care:

There are no doubt others but these are the big names.

Citibank
J P Morgan
Goldman Sachs
Disney
Amazon
Yelp
Conde Nast (Vogue)
Lyft
Uber

Tsk tsk that left wing banking lot eh?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get why this is such an important issue for those replying in this thread. I haven't seen any women reply here yet. I suspect here it is merely about political tribalism, since my guess is no one here is affected by any of it. Strikes as me as a bit dumb to get worked up over something you're not affected by.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


You do realise that the majority of abortions take place when the foetus isn't even a foetus don't you? Something like 90% occur in the first 13 weeks when you'd be hard put to recognise it as human and where it doesn't have consciousness and that the majority of that 90% occur even earlier.



you do realise that when a foetus isnt aborted, it goes on to born as a baby dont you?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 26 Jun 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

to v or not to v wrote:
Islander wrote:


You do realise that the majority of abortions take place when the foetus isn't even a foetus don't you? Something like 90% occur in the first 13 weeks when you'd be hard put to recognise it as human and where it doesn't have consciousness and that the majority of that 90% occur even earlier.



you do realise that when a foetus isnt aborted, it goes on to born as a baby dont you?


You do realise that what exists in the first 13 weeks hardly even qualifies as a foetus don't you? You do also realise that it's a woman's choice whether or not to carry to term don't you? You do also realise that an abortion isn't a choice made lightly and is usually made for very good reasons don't you? You do realise that you don't actually have a say in the matter don't you?
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