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The end of Petrol, yet again

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Keithy
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PostPosted: 09:19 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: The end of Petrol, yet again Reply with quote

The Government stuff

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-motorbikes-race-onto-uk-roads-through-transport-decarbonisation-measures

The BMF/NMC view

https://www.britishmotorcyclists.co.uk/nmc-decarbonisation-response/

I’m sure there are cleverer folks on here who understand this stuff but I find if all rather hurried, I don’t see Battery Electric Vehicles as the future, I see them as a dead end, a historical cul-de-sac if you like.

Thoughts?
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, seems utterly incomprehesible that they are targeting the most fuel efficient and economic (both to buy and run) vehicles first

Anyone who uses a 125cc as a means of their only transport surely cannot even begin to think about the prospect of replacing that £1500 vehicle with a £4-5000 BEV replacement, it's utter madness
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
Yep, seems utterly incomprehesible that they are targeting the most fuel efficient and economic (both to buy and run) vehicles first


Does seem bizarre, like banning petrol cars by starting with the Citroen C1.

Interesting perspective on this stuff from Triumph as part of an interview about their TE-1 project. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkJoBSVMoWM

General impression seems to be that electric motorcycles become less viable the larger/faster they get, both for weight and cost reasons. Something Fortnine mentions in their video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zlYpy6QCM

But we're still waiting for a C90/YBR equivalent from one of the big manufacturers.
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Last edited by Zen Dog on 11:48 - 18 Jul 2022; edited 1 time in total
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arry
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:

Anyone who uses a 125cc as a means of their only transport surely cannot even begin to think about the prospect of replacing that £1500 vehicle with a £4-5000 BEV replacement, it's utter madness


Just Eat / Uber Eats and the like will no doubt lease them to their riders and at a thoroughly reasonable cost Whistle

Unfortunately this country seems to have demonised the scooter as viable personal transport for quite some time, and then locked that down in law with the ridiculous A1 (and to a certain extent A2) licence structure.

Theft statistics, poor road conditions, poor driving standards, lack of specific arrangements that would help with practicality (gear lockers, ground anchors); the list of detractors to adopting scooters for the masses goes on.

Sip fuel, turn out hardly any pollution, cause hardly any congestion? Yup, let's make them even more unattractive by making them less practical and more expensive to purchase. That'll help.
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 12:17 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been thinking about this "125s get banned first" thing. And I think the reason is that the ban isn't for us (i.e. punters). We have no control over whether motorbikes (of any description) get made. The ban is for the manufacturers, and it's speaking to them. I think the government is basically saying, "small electric/green motorcycles are the most viable as part of the future transport infrastructure, so get on with making them. Big bikes aren't going to work anyway, and are basically irrelevant in terms of overall transport infrastructure, so they can come later".

Whether that's true, and whether it will work, are separate questions, but that's the only reason I can think of for doing this.
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My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zen Dog wrote:
Been thinking about this "125s get banned first" thing. And I think the reason is that the ban isn't for us (i.e. punters). We have no control over whether motorbikes (of any description) get made. The ban is for the manufacturers, and it's speaking to them. I think the government is basically saying, "small electric/green motorcycles are the most viable as part of the future transport infrastructure, so get on with making them. Big bikes aren't going to work anyway, and are basically irrelevant in terms of overall transport infrastructure, so they can come later".

Whether that's true, and whether it will work, are separate questions, but that's the only reason I can think of for doing this.


I can't see any flaw in your reasoning but I can see a flaw in the Govt's. If little ol' UK thinks it is going to push around the EU / ROW on what sort of bikes should / shouldn't be manufactured then they're dreaming. We're just not a big enough market to be an influencer.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

People need to understand that Electric Vehicles still need Energy (some of which may need to be produced by 'unclean' methods).

I attended a lecture which proved that if we were going to get this additional Electricity by clean measures, we would need to cover 25% of the land area of this country with wind turbines.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpsmith79 wrote:
Yep, seems utterly incomprehesible that they are targeting the most fuel efficient and economic (both to buy and run) vehicles first

Anyone who uses a 125cc as a means of their only transport surely cannot even begin to think about the prospect of replacing that £1500 vehicle with a £4-5000 BEV replacement, it's utter madness


100% agreed mate
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kolu
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
People need to understand that Electric Vehicles still need Energy (some of which may need to be produced by 'unclean' methods).

I attended a lecture which proved that if we were going to get this additional Electricity by clean measures, we would need to cover 25% of the land area of this country with wind turbines.


yet another great reason tu build more nuclear power plants and invest heavily in deployment of advanced fission plants (ABWR, ESBWR, HPM, etc) and further development of the technology.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

kolu wrote:
bhinso wrote:
People need to understand that Electric Vehicles still need Energy (some of which may need to be produced by 'unclean' methods).

I attended a lecture which proved that if we were going to get this additional Electricity by clean measures, we would need to cover 25% of the land area of this country with wind turbines.


yet another great reason tu build more nuclear power plants and invest heavily in deployment of advanced fission plants (ABWR, ESBWR, HPM, etc) and further development of the technology.

Typical green 'solution' which overlooks that nuclear takes ten years to build and fission is barely achievable in the lab never mind scaled up to actually do anything.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 08:26 - 19 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:

Typical green 'solution' which overlooks that nuclear takes ten years to build and fission is barely achievable in the lab never mind scaled up to actually do anything.


You are confusing fission with fusion.

Fission plants have been commercially viable for at least 50 years.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 19 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

They aren't the future - it's personal private transport that's going to be the exception rather than the norm.
Lots of people talk about how we'll need these great big warehouse lockups for e-bikes. I just don't see that happening. Are people really riding to work or college and back every day on a scooter or 125? Isn't that quite rare nowadays? I'm not sure, but going by what I've seen, it's the exception rather than the rule. Therefore, I expect e-bikes won't replace mopeds or scooters, but rather the easy accessibility of throwaway little bikes will dry up, and the people currently using them will instead learn about bus timetables. The fact there are no plans to decarbonise air travel by curbing the use of private jets tells me all I need to know about this rugpull-in-the-making, and I won't be buying into it, ever.
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arry
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 19 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
Are people really riding to work or college and back every day on a scooter or 125? Isn't that quite rare nowadays?


I think it's quite rare for people to go to work or college, to be fair. There's either a nasty disease with a 0.001% chance of death, or 100degF sunshine in July getting in their way. Ain't nobody got time for dat.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 20 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
Are people really riding to work or college and back every day on a scooter or 125? Isn't that quite rare nowadays?


I ride to work every day I don't need the car to carry something. It doesn't matter to me if it's cold or raining I will usually still ride. Using the 125 way more than the 650 at the moment.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 11:46 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
The fact there are no plans to decarbonise air travel by curbing the use of private jets tells me all I need to know about this rugpull-in-the-making, and I won't be buying into it, ever.


This is a major point. Pick on teh little guy (us) with next to no lobbying support while air travel, the second highest C02 contributor apparently, gets away Scot free until 2050 according to the report.. Think of the hoo-hah if Joe an Joanna Bloggs can't have their two weeks in Benidorm or the Stag parties a piss-up in Tallin.

STILL no tax on aviation fuel is a world scandal.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
Lots of people talk about how we'll need these great big warehouse lockups for e-bikes. I just don't see that happening. Are people really riding to work or college and back every day on a scooter or 125? Isn't that quite rare nowadays?

I presume that when people are saying e-bikes, they're referring to electrically assisted pedal cycles rather than an electric equivalent of a scooter or 125.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
The fact there are no plans to decarbonise air travel by curbing the use of private jets tells me all I need to know about this rugpull-in-the-making

Although private jets etc may be morally wrong climate-wise, you really need to know how much it is a problem for the planet (ie caused by relatively only a few individuals), versus the literally billions of people who use IC engines. I have no idea how these compare.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 19:11 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you think jets are a problem, best not look into shipping.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shipping especially of containers is probably the most efficient way to move stuff by weight round the world.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 21:10 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about shipping of holiday goers on giant cruise ships
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:18 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very few ships like that compared to jets. Without co2 per mile per passenger for both its an irrelevant discussion and I can't be arsed to look simply because keeping people I the air is inherently more energy intensive.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep half an eye on the electric bike market to see if anything is coming along that looks like it might be worth buying.

I assume that the reason 125s are being targeted is because there are viable replacement electric bikes now, which should get significantly cheaper over the next few years. Similar the badge engineering of Chinese bike with a couple of different model of 125cc petrol engine (which are clones of old Japanese designs), there is a drop-in electric powertrain - motor, controller, batteries - for 125-equivalent power outputs. I think Bosch make the main one, alternatives and clones will exist. I think it's in the region of 10kw output and ~100 miles of range from a bike costing about £5k. So it's not great, with not too far off the overall price and performance of a new petrol 125.

Mass production isn't happening for anything bigger. There's a moderate amount of volume from Zero, and I'm expecting a moderate volume from Harley/Livewire, but nothing approaching the economies of scale needed to make a 50-100hp electric bike a reasonable price.

Also worth noting - in London at least, the vast majority of powered two wheeled traffic is scooters delivering food. They appear to make up about 90% of it. Whilst it is, and will remain, a small sliver of CO2 emissions, they could make up a fair proportion of local air quality emissions by 2030 as more cars become electric, and more boilers are replaced with heat pumps.
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 25 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I turn my back for 5 seconds and come back and find their trying to steal away cheapish small motorbikes. Mad
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 27 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mandated imposition of electric vehicles from 2030. Why?

The solutions are shite.

If the government had spent its time (i.e. our money) on research & infrastructure to bring range up, costs down and sufficient charging points a mandate would be unnecessary.

"But! But! Manufacturers wouldn't make EVs unless we force them!" Ah, a conspiracy is it? Sorry, manufacturers are in the business of making money - they echo the Market's evaluation of electric vehicles.

Same as forcing people to pay taxes: it's a shit value proposition so you have to do it at gun point.
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arry
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 30 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Mandated imposition of electric vehicles from 2030. Why?

The solutions are shite.


I saw one of these Maeving things in London yesterday:

https://www.thecoolector.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/ma1.jpg

https://maeving.com/products/maeving-rm1-deposit?variant=42018572828867

Had quite the opportunity to look it over actually. Because it'd conked out on The Minories having run out of juice Laughing

I have to say, however, it did look pretty neat, and the fact the battery is removable / able to be charged on a normal plug socket (veeeery slowly) albeit it seems you have to carry the docking station, maybe? Not sure. But hey, hipsters gonna hip:

Quote:
Designed to be beautiful as well as functional, our batteries feature an integrated carry handle with bamboo detailing, and are supplied with a carry strap, charging cable with plug, and easy-to-use dock.


S'all about dat Bamboo. Helps keep the cost of a battery down to just under a grand Shocked

I always get particularly worried buying from a manufacturer that doesn't really understand the marketplace of its product very well.

Quote:
Do I need a license to ride a Maeving RM1?
Yes, you need a CBT License.


The good ol' CBT Licensse eh Rolling Eyes


Despite my cynicism and mocking - I did think it looked pretty cool and I wouldn't mind a go on one. If I needed a commute tool, i wouldn't be the worst idea.

However, you'd have to be pretty nuts to pay £4.5k or £5.5k with a second battery, for a 45mph top speed, when the Super Soco TC Max will do a genuine 60mph at £4300 and has better comparative range at 60 miles versus 40 for the Maeving, unless you double up on the battery. It would seem a no brainer to go for the Super Soco and not pay the hipster tax.
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