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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 02:40 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


Tory/consertative/whig. My point was, don't try to claim the current Westminster government is representative of anything other than the preference of the English electorate.


But that's the point - they're not even representative of the English electorate as it turned out. I said it above; they were voted for because Boris promised to get Brexit done (you even quoted me on that - come on, it was only a few minutes ago, are you taking something you shouldn't? Laughing ). But since that they have constantly made a complete hash of everything, including Brexit itself.

Quote:
Full disclosure, I live in England and voted Tory at the last election but I'm just here stealing English jobs and women as is traditional for Scots since they started clamping down on cattle rustling.


I'm sure the English women are much impressed with a guy who spends much of his life up to his shoulder in a cow's arse Laughing

Hang on....

stinkwheel wrote:
Full disclosure, I live in England and voted Tory at the last election


Well, you've only yourself to blame then, eh? Wink
Honestly stinkers, stay out of the veterinary medicines cupboard, it's not doing you any good Laughing
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 03:19 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


stinkwheel wrote:
Full disclosure, I live in England and voted Tory at the last election


Well, you've only yourself to blame then, eh? Wink
Honestly stinkers, stay out of the veterinary medicines cupboard, it's not doing you any good Laughing


So which party would you suggest a middle-income Scotsman living in England vote for if he wants to see an independant Scotland and eventually save up enough to be able to retire? All the English parties are pro-union. I went for the one that I thought would fritter away the least of my money.

I'm not saying they aren't useless, but I do believe that Westminster is the representative government of England. It's you that is pissed off with the tories. I saw it as a choice of who would fuck things up the least but I'm effectively voting for if I want a shit sandwich with or without ketchup. There would have been no ketchup under Corbyn.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 04:19 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


I went for the one that I thought would fritter away the least of my money.


There you go mistaking the Tory party for actual conservatives again Rolling Eyes (although to be fair, I'm not sure that conservatism can actually exist anymore).
If I were you, the thing I would be most worried about with an independent Scotland is that I see an ever-strengthening streak of socialism there; it's something I've always thought many Scots were inclined towards. I see more of it here in England than I would like too, although it is not coming from the general population. So if you're looking not to have your money frittered away, prepare for more major disappointment with independence.

Quote:
I'm not saying they aren't useless, but I do believe that Westminster is the representative government of England.


Then you misunderstand what has been happening in the last few years. They are no longer representative of anyone but themselves. They don't represent the "red wall", they don't represent conservatism, they don't represent you and they don't represent me.

Quote:
I'm effectively voting for if I want a shit sandwich with or without ketchup. There would have been no ketchup under Corbyn.


Sorry, ketchup's off the menu completely now, for all of us. So going back to your question:

stinkwheel wrote:
So which party would you suggest a middle-income Scotsman living in England vote for if he wants to see an independant Scotland and eventually save up enough to be able to retire?


Answer: there isn't one.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 08:49 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:

Let's see then. Of 650 elected MPs sitting in Westminster:

59 are Scottish
40 are Welsh
18 are Northern Irish

That leaves 533 English MPs representing English constituencies.

If you're going to bring ethnic minority members into the equation for whatever reason, just 65 or 10% of the elected MPs come from their ranks.

Whichever way you look at it, Westminster is largely representative of England and the majority are English politicians.


To put it the other way around though, if the different nations of the UK had an equal vote share, a vote in Scotland would have significantly more power than a vote in England, even more extreme in Wales and NI. Surely the representation of MPs is just purely down to population distribution and it's inevitable the most populous component of a union is going to hold the most votes and therefore have the most influence?

Back to the overall independence vote, *if* it did come to fruition, the caveat I'd like to see is a wholly objective and accurate breakdown behind the voting choices. It annoys the hell out of me how poorly regulated the Brexit vote was (and annoys me even more that despite a few efforts, apparently it's fine for a misrepresentation of the facts to have swayed a vote with a narrow margin).
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A100man
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
ThunderGuts wrote:
Islander wrote:

Let's see then. Of 650 elected MPs sitting in Westminster:

59 are Scottish
40 are Welsh
18 are Northern Irish

That leaves 533 English MPs representing English constituencies.

If you're going to bring ethnic minority members into the equation for whatever reason, just 65 or 10% of the elected MPs come from their ranks.

Whichever way you look at it, Westminster is largely representative of England and the majority are English politicians.


To put it the other way around though, if the different nations of the UK had an equal vote share, a vote in Scotland would have significantly more power than a vote in England, even more extreme in Wales and NI. Surely the representation of MPs is just purely down to population distribution and it's inevitable the most populous component of a union is going to hold the most votes and therefore have the most influence?

Back to the overall independence vote, *if* it did come to fruition, the caveat I'd like to see is a wholly objective and accurate breakdown behind the voting choices. It annoys the hell out of me how poorly regulated the Brexit vote was (and annoys me even more that despite a few efforts, apparently it's fine for a misrepresentation of the facts to have swayed a vote with a narrow margin).


Quite so..

The Yorkshire puddin's, who I've said before probably have a more viable claim to Independence that The Scots, have 54 MPs. The indepenace thing isn't rational it's emotional, more so even than Brexit IMO and also more likely to end up as a financial disaster.

Personally, emotionally, I'd like to keep the union. I like Scotland (except the pubs, most of the pubs are dire) and the Scottish people and I think many English feel the same. The balance of hate/disdain is not equal across the border that's for sure.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Happy St. Andrews Day BTW Wink !
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 11:33 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


Well you might just find yourself in the minority at the next referendum Laughing


Maybe so but not a substantially small one and my point (which im assuming you have the intellect to understand but deliberately avoid) is the Nats constantly co-opt the entity "Scotland" as if it's their own and cast it as if it's some kind of consciousness inherently orientated in contradiction to a cohesive whole.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 12:06 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
A100man wrote:
except the pubs, most of the pubs are dire


They are getting better actually. Cities and towns in the central belt have always had something, but the wilder places are more of a challenge. I regularly visit the Highlands and 15 years ago you'd struggle to get a pint of anything other than Belhaven Best, but good beer is starting to pop up all over the place now in the most unlikely of places.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
ThunderGuts wrote:
It annoys the hell out of me how poorly regulated the Brexit vote was (and annoys me even more that despite a few efforts, apparently it's fine for a misrepresentation of the facts to have swayed a vote with a narrow margin).


Everyone conveniently forgets how the Cameron government used state funds to send a leaflet to every member of the voting public explaining why they thought they should vote remain just a few days before the "purdah" period started.

So if we're talking about poor regulation and undue influences.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 15:31 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Judging by the outcome though, the influence wasn't very effective
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 15:56 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
ThunderGuts wrote:
Judging by the outcome though, the influence wasn't very effective


Maybe it was? Maybe the result would have been even more pro-brexit if they hadn't interfered, how would you know?
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 16:00 - 30 Nov 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very true.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 04:24 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry guys, I'm a little late to the Party.

Fuck the Hinglish.
Independence for Scotland.
Free Financial assistance from anyone.
We want it now.
And fuck the Hinglish.

In addition, we will be keeping the Pound Sterling.
(Coz we have places that can print it and it was invented by a Scottish Patriot in 1548.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:14 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's independence from the Union not independence from England. Starting to sound a bit racist...
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 13:05 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
It's independence from the Union not independence from England. Starting to sound a bit racist...


So when Poland wanted independance from Russia, was that racist?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:29 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
It's independence from the Union not independence from England. Starting to sound a bit racist...


So when Poland wanted independance from Russia, was that racist?


Poland was never part of Russia.

Anyway, don't you lot believe in the one global world? Remember, borders are racist!
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MCN
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Anyway, don't you lot believe in the one global world? Remember, borders are racist!


Where's the 'This Chap's too Woke' button?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
It's independence from the Union not independence from England. Starting to sound a bit racist...


So when Poland wanted independance from Russia, was that racist?


Poland was independent of Russia, they wanted freedom from the Eastern Bloc, the Soviet Union... they wanted out of the Union Rolling Eyes

Or in contemporary terms: who should Ukrainians get mad at? General everyday Russians or Vladimir Putin?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:34 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Anyway, don't you lot believe in the one global world? Remember, borders are racist!


Where's the 'This Chap's too Woke' button?


Nazi.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:17 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:


Poland was independent of Russia, they wanted freedom from the Eastern Bloc, the Soviet Union... they wanted out of the Union Rolling Eyes


The Poles I've talked to about it referr to that period as "Under the Russians". That includes the incrediby camp dude who took me on a cycling tour of Krakov.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Poland was never a part of Russia.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Poland was never a part of Russia.


Sorry, yes. Obviously they were volountary members of a Union which wasn't controlled by Russia at all. Totally equal partners with a high level of autonomy.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 01 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Poland was never a part of Russia.


Sorry, yes.


No need to apologise Smile

Quote:
Obviously they were volountary members of a Union which wasn't controlled by Russia at all. Totally equal partners with a high level of autonomy.


Now you're getting it wrong again.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 01:29 - 02 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kanye has been dragged (quite rightly I might add) for banging on about the Jews and "...let's not forget the good things the Nazis did!" Shocked

It has been pointed out that maybe he's been fucked over and maybe some of the ppl who fucked him over incidentally have Jewish sounding names (not that there's any proof of that one way or the other.) He's more hacked off with contract lawyers IMO. Anyhoo, what everyone recognises is it's a very unfair jump to go straight to "The Jews!" There are successful Jews therefore all Jews are successful fallacy.

"We hate Westminster. Westminster has many MPs that we think of as English and therefore we hate the English in general and blame said country in its entirety for our perceived ills" Sad

Obviously I'm being a bit thick here. What's the difference?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 02 Dec 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Kanye has been dragged (quite rightly I might add) for banging on about the Jews and "...let's not forget the good things the Nazis did!" Shocked

It has been pointed out that maybe he's been fucked over and maybe some of the ppl who fucked him over incidentally have Jewish sounding names (not that there's any proof of that one way or the other.) He's more hacked off with contract lawyers IMO. Anyhoo, what everyone recognises is it's a very unfair jump to go straight to "The Jews!" There are successful Jews therefore all Jews are successful fallacy.

"We hate Westminster. Westminster has many MPs that we think of as English and therefore we hate the English in general and blame said country in its entirety for our perceived ills" Sad

Obviously I'm being a bit thick here. What's the difference?


Try this instead:

"We want to exercise our right to withdraw from the union and become an independent self governing country"

That's it, in a nutshell.

Nobody has answered the question as to why, when we're so clearly a financial and political burden to the UK, they're so rabidly keen to hang on to us. Odd that eh? Laughing
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