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KZ1000 ignition problems

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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 29 Jan 2023    Post subject: KZ1000 ignition problems Reply with quote

Just check my thinking on this one...

The old fellas Kwacker was intermittently but now permanently firing on 2 cylinders. Left coil supplies cylinders 1/4 and the right coil does 2/3. The coils go back to an ancient Dyna electronic ignition module which in turn gets it's timing signals from two coil pickups. AFAIK this is not some fancy CDI unit that changes timing curves etc. just a black box that converts the pickup signals into on/off for the coils - pretty much a direct points conversion. (Advance is old skool mechanical counterweights.)

Anyhoo, I've swapped over the ignition module to coil connections and the spark moves from 2/3 to 1/4 so I'm assuming the coils are okay. Swapping the pickup outputs around does not move the spark so I'm assuming the pickups are okay. I stripped back a little bit of insulation from the 1/4 wire close to the ignition module and there's continuity to the coil end so I'm assuming the wire is okay (no breaks) so that just leaves the ignition module.

So we're going with a modern Dyna S DS2-1 system which is an entirely different animal to the old set up: new timing plate that wires straight to the coils with all the electronics built in. Fingers crossed it sorts the problem Smile
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 23:32 - 30 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you replacing your coils with Dyna S ones too?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:13 - 31 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably not. The specs sheet says >3ohm should be fine and the ones on the bike are only 6 months old. Is there anything special about the Dyna ones?
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 31 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

The impedance on the standard coils is different from the Dyna S ones.
On KZrider they prefer original points ignition, and they do say that Dyna systems are fine, but they don't last forever, and that the Dyna coils are specifically designed for Dyna ignition systems. I'm not saying your system won't work, but the approach I would take is to use Dyna coils with a Dyna system (for peace of mind), and Kawasaki (used) coils for a points system, and never any unbranded aftermarket new coils (I've used aftermarket coils more than once, and they are junk).
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:45 - 31 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dynacoil ignitions were notorious in their day for demanding a healthy, fully charged battery.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 31 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Dynacoil ignitions were notorious in their day for demanding a healthy, fully charged battery.


Fair point but thankfully the old fella's religious about having his bikes hooked up to trickle chargers if they're gonna be left for a few days.

It might be that the new coils we put in last year were wot killed the old Dyna ignition module Thinking (I think I'll keep that rumination to myself!) But I seriously hope I don't need Dyna coils as they're pretty expensive. I mean, coils are coils: outside of MTBF (i.e. quality) only the impedance should matter... right?
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A100man
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 31 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
stinkwheel wrote:
Dynacoil ignitions were notorious in their day for demanding a healthy, fully charged battery.


Fair point but thankfully the old fella's religious about having his bikes hooked up to trickle chargers if they're gonna be left for a few days.

It might be that the new coils we put in last year were wot killed the old Dyna ignition module Thinking (I think I'll keep that rumination to myself!) But I seriously hope I don't need Dyna coils as they're pretty expensive. I mean, coils are coils: outside of MTBF (i.e. quality) only the impedance should matter... right?


I fitted cheapo coils to the GT250 and they made a huge difference to starting and reliability compared to the (nearly)50 yr OEM ones. I suspect they may not last as well though if the ignition is left on with the points closed...
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Robby
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PostPosted: 22:55 - 03 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given your fondness for arduinos and shit, would any of the semi-homebrew ignition systems work?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 04 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
Given your fondness for arduinos and shit, would any of the semi-homebrew ignition systems work?


Might be overdoing it a bit! I did joke with the old fella and suggest a full EFI conversion Laughing
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 04 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd always agree with replacing points with reluctors or hall effect pulsers
this pic suggests the Dyna uses reluctors with adjustment.
to set up pulser to tip distance .

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/j6QAAOSwn11hQltP/s-l1600.jpg


fine, but I'm not impressed by the cabling quality and anything that uses a fucking scotchlok !!
it looks a bit homebrew/prototype stage to me.

What's inside the controller box is probably a closely guarded secret but as they
insist on >3 ohm coils I'll guess at TCI.

At the end of the day if it works and he's happy, so be it.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:59 - 04 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK the only other choice* is Boyer Bransden which is a touch more expensive. However the Boyer is a more modern CDI where the original mechanical advance is binned. Looking at the instructions it seems you have to set TDC for the spinning magnet whereas with the Dyna S, slotting onto the mechanical advance, it's just a case of the correct orientation.

BTW Boyer is no better for wiring, also includes one of Scotchlok things Sad Don't worry, that bit will go in the bin. If there's one thing I can manage it's proper wiring Smile

*Unless you count going back to points.
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 22:54 - 04 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignitech in CZ was a well regarded an option but haven't looked to see if they're still about.
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 23:32 - 04 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
Ignitech in CZ was a well regarded an option but haven't looked to see if they're still about.


Are you kidding? Ignitech and Zeeltronic are the main players in CNC ignition systems.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 23:57 - 04 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also Power Arc

https://www.powerarc.com/
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:33 - 05 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
There's also Power Arc

https://www.powerarc.com/


Kit looks good. Website is a Geocities fail, sorry.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 00:46 - 05 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
Ignitech in CZ was a well regarded an option but haven't looked to see if they're still about.


I fitted an Ignitech unit to replace the ignitors on my M900. It's been faultless. Thumbs Up
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 05 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least if the mechanical advance goes wonky there are plenty of options, thanks guys Smile
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 05 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

I last played with an Ignitech back in the mid 2000's
and know it became a favoured option for folk with CDI type bikes
especially the early CX's

haven't looked them up for ages but see they're still about
( kidding? why the fuck would I be kidding? and WTFs CNC ignition anyway?)

and the TCIP4 looks suitable
https://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm
plus a they do points upgrade kits as well in the accessories section
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 05 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
I last played with an Ignitech back in the mid 2000's
and know it became a favoured option for folk with CDI type bikes
especially the early CX's

haven't looked them up for ages but see they're still about
( kidding? why the fuck would I be kidding? and WTFs CNC ignition anyway?)

and the TCIP4 looks suitable
https://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm
plus a they do points upgrade kits as well in the accessories section


It's the TCIP4 that I have. Thumbs Up
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:51 - 11 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update: Dyna S plate fitted and static timing done, all worked as expected. Got the strobe gun out and started on the dynamic timing. Just started dialling it in when 1 & 4 stopped working again!

To recap, previous 1 & 4 weren't working at all and now 1 & 4 fail after warm-up so we actually had two problems all along Sad To confirm we stopped for a cup of tea and let the engine cool down, tried again and 1 & 4 were there and working from a cold engine.

"But these are new coils?!" yup, bought in April last year apparently and the old fella spent the amazing sum of... £26 on the pair. Oh, ffs Rolling Eyes
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 02:02 - 12 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

New ignition system but £26 Chinese coils... I wouldn't give it a second thought. A classic Z would benefit from a cheap new Chinese seat cover (I recommend them - they're good), but coils? Dyna coils all the way, for a Dyna system.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 03:01 - 12 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we can do better but Dyna ones are >£180 a pair Shocked
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 14 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correction: the current coils were £26 each so middling for price. Informed on the coil problem the supplier's sending out a replacement Smile
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 20 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replacement coil turned up and... now it's only firing on 1 & 2?! Shocked Turned out to be restrictive pipes on the temp fuel tank we had hanging up. 1 & 2 carbs are the lowest points when on the side stand Rolling Eyes Original tank went back on and all 4 fired up just fine.

We'd already done the static timing and so I suggested ragging it down the road and back to clear out the cobwebs (sat about for several weeks at this point) and TBH the old fella set off with the bike sounding like a mixed bag of cats and spanners but it came back purring Smile

Sufficiently warmed up we set the idle & advance timing, adjusted the carb idle setting a tad and then rechecked the timing again. 1&4 vs. 2&3 timing can be adjusted separately and 2&3 did need a tiny tweak. Anyhoo, that's as good as it'll ever get with just a strobe gun and much as the old fella loves this bike I doubt he'll shell out for a dyno. Just waiting on the next reasonable day for him to road test it properly.
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 20:12 - 20 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y'see? this is the problem with online forum diagnosis
and it being best guess at best.

With partial info, we get led down the path of discussing ignition systems when it just needed a proper fucking fuel supply!
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