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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 10:14 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
From my house to the City is ~40 mile round trip, that's a recipe for range anxiety if I ever heard one. And if I set off on my ICE bike and I'm on the last bar of the fuel gauge it's a moment's work to fill it up.

EVs are a shite solution. The sooner governments admit to this the sooner we can roll out clever solutions to mitigate the shortcomings. Why bother when it's forced on people?


EV's are a shite solution because you happen to have managed to fit your circumstances to an EV that is unsuitable. A lot of Zero's now have a 120 mile range which is getting a lot closer to what a normal bike would do. My Buell only had that range if you were willing to risk it after the light came on.

If you've got a 50 mile round trip into 'the city' then a 110 mile electric range is probably about ideal, especially as you can charge at home rather than having to stop in at a petrol station.

You're allowed to say that you just happen to like things that go 'vrrrm' but rational arguments against electrification of vehicles need to be rational. Irrational arguments are allowed to be irrational.
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 14:03 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
dave001 wrote:


heres som rational aurgumets for ev`s are shit
It would be nice if they were *cogent* arguments.

dave001 wrote:
enjoy the 3 hour wait when on a long ride for chager if you can find one working
That is not an argument against EVs, that is an argument of the current state of EV infrastructure. As petrol supply winds down, charging infrastructure will naturally build. Fifteen years ago people were saying the backbone of the internet could not handle video streaming in any substantial way, now everyone uses Amazon or Netflix or whatever. The upgrades will happen.


dave001 wrote:
enjoy the ripe of price of ev`s and replament batt price
A lot of EV's are comparable in price to their IC equivalents. Bikes haven't *quite* caught up yet, but they either will or bikes will die out altogether. Don't forget that motorcycling is basically incompatible with self driving vehicles.

dave001 wrote:
enjoy your every movement track when they strat taxing EV`s by the mile
Eh? How is that an EV specific thing? Petrol cars get taxed by the mile already, it's called fuel tax! That is a policy argument, not an argument against EVs specifically. The government could implement something to tax you every time you take a shit, but it's not an argument for constipation is it? The point is, you need to vote in a way that prevents punitive taxes. It's always been that way, and will always be that way.

dave001 wrote:
say bye bye to working on them at home and the ass raping labour charges your get as all the softwear will be locked apple style
Don't buy the ones which lock it down. They said this about electronic ignition, fuel injection, air bags, ABS... you name it. At the end of the day you'll need to work on them less because there are less serviceable parts. That ultimately means more reliablity. In 20 years IC engined vehicles will be seen as old smelly and dirty, not unlike the way we might view a steam traction engine today. Quaint, but long gone.

dave001 wrote:
the only future in EV`s in your life time and mine is in ripping off the sheeple


Again you've failed to demonstrate *how* they are a ripoff.

The issue with EV's at the moment is that it takes time to fill them up with energy. More time than it would take to fill a petrol tank with petrol. Everything else is either policy, better or solvable... except the fact that we like things that go 'vrrrm'.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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P.
Red Rocket



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
dave001 wrote:
are you shaw you would not be better of spending your time glueing your self to the road

than on a motorcycle forum?


He's right though.
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 15:33 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
dave001 wrote:
are you shaw you would not be better of spending your time glueing your self to the road

than on a motorcycle forum?


Nope, I'm prepared to admit I like things that go 'Vrrrrm'. I'm also a realist and know that the writing is on the wall for internal combustion engines. Hence why I have and am enjoying my vehicles now while I can. I'm sure I will equally enjoy electric bikes and cars. It won't be exactly the same of course, but I'm hoping my enthusiasm is transferrable.

I was listening to a podcast with a very old motorcycle journalist as a guest. He was saying that when electric starts first came in they had letters saying that they weren't any good because you couldn't fix them at the side of the road and if the bike broke down it was better to be able to start it with your boot. Now think about bikes nowadays. Apply the feeling you had about that particular letter to the difference between internal combustion and electric vehicles. I guarantee people will look back and go "We used to fill our bikes up with flammable prehistoric plant crude oil extract and then burn it to get from A to B. We were dumb huh?!"
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Robby
Dirty Old Man



Joined: 16 May 2002
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PostPosted: 17:11 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd like to pick up the point about waiting for a charger, or chargers being broken, because it comes up a lot.

I've had an electric car for about 2 years. I've been in a pinch like once, when the (single) charger at a motorway services was broken, and I had to wait for an hour at the next services to get on a charger for my 30 minute charge.

Since then, a lovely enterprising farm shop and cafe around the safe bit of the M4 has installed 4 high speed chargers, so I go there now and have a decent lunch.

In the same time period, my family with petrol and diesel cars were in a pinch for 2 weeks straight, during the late 2021 fuel crisis. Queueing for hours in the hope there would still be fuel when they got to the front of the queue.

Also battery replacement. It just isn't a thing. They last a lot longer than the daily mail would have you believe.
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Polarbear
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: 18:44 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:


dave001 wrote:
enjoy the ripe of price of ev`s and replament batt price
A lot of EV's are comparable in price to their IC equivalents. Bikes haven't *quite* caught up yet, but they either will or bikes will die out altogether. Don't forget that motorcycling is basically incompatible with self driving vehicles.



Please point me in the direction where an EV car is the same price as an equivalent spec ICE version.

Using a Vauxhall corsa - Cheapeast basic electric £31800
Cheapest basic petrol - £18065
Most expensive basic trim petrol - £24500

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/corsa/build-and-price.html?ppc=GOOGLE_700000001664021_71700000092631302_58700007760897506_p70507607508&_vsrefdom=mca&gclid=CjwKCAiArY2fBhB9EiwAWqHK6pGgccztK2KgMtEzTnGG5_3R7BGrgBpm-4L2OxJx4-ZU7ybkEF1iOxoCS0EQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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P.
Red Rocket



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
I'd like to pick up the point about waiting for a charger, or chargers being broken, because it comes up a lot.


I was due to receive an EV through work, but changed job so cancelled it but they hooked me up with zapmap and some other checkers. There are a fair few near me and I'm pretty rural, that and the journey I take down south, it's littered with them.

When I was looking at Bluewater, out of the 8 or 10 points, 3 were working. Many reported back 5 months or so, reported like 3 days ago to be broken still.

Whilst that's probably just a thing of Bluewaters lack of contract/agreed fix time, I do feel that the infrastructure will grow and be suitable, especially given my rural charging points. They aren't all big chargers though, the 3(?)kW and 7kW are all around but I've seen there are 50kW elsewhere, so whilst I do have a chunk locally, none are mega fast ones.

What EV are you using?
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Easy-X
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Joined: 08 Mar 2019
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
EVs are shite. I know they're shite because the government said so in mandating their usage. If they could stand on their own merits we wouldn't be forced to buy them.

TBF electric motor technology is fantastic. >95% efficiency? Yes please. Instant torque and no gearbox? Shut up and take my money. But energy capacity and charging? That's where it falls apart. Tesla seem to have done a reasonable job in this area and the owners seem very happy replacing vrrrmmm with more grin but you'll pay through the nose for one.

I ask the same question that no one wants to answer:

If EVs are better or even comparable to ICE vehicles why would one need a law to mandate their uptake?

Is it reasonable to expect over a century of petroleum-based transport to go in the bin after what, a decade? Let's be honest here, the Model S coming out in 2012 was the first decent EV to make the main auto manufacturers sit up and take notice.

Given I've seen no evidence to suggest there'll be the resource production (lithium mining etc.) or infrastructure to cope with replacing ICE vehicle sales with EVs come 2030 I'm starting to believe the real intent is to do away with private vehicle ownership for the plebs.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Because of social inertia. How many people would have continued using leaded petrol if it hadn't been outlawed? How many people.would have used cheap coal in London to heat their houses rather than smokeless fuel if it hadn't been outlawed?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
World Chat Champion



Joined: 09 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: 20:56 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
If EVs are better or even comparable to ICE vehicles why would one need a law to mandate their uptake?

To persuade manufacturers to develop them. Unfortunately, as you say, whilst electric motors have remarkable performance the battery technologies they rely on don’t seem able to deliver, despite huge investment. The ‘mandate’ won’t work.

EV’s are a technological dead end unless they coincide with a reduction in travel. If that’s the aim (it probably is now) it stands in stark contrast to the way we’ve been encouraged (forced) to live. Very poor leadership.

We need a better technology which delivers ‘greener’ credentials but doesn’t require a backward step. I think it’s biofuels. Lots of problems to resolve but I reckon it’ll come.
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Easy-X
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Joined: 08 Mar 2019
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Because of social inertia. How many people would have continued using leaded petrol if it hadn't been outlawed? How many people.would have used cheap coal in London to heat their houses rather than smokeless fuel if it hadn't been outlawed?


The leaded petrol business was built on the outright lie that Tetraethyllead was completely safe. Smokeless coal at least heated homes sufficiently to be useful even if more expensive. Not the greatest comparisons. Is the central theme here "it's for your own good!" Thinking

I remain unconvinced.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
And heating the world until the ice caps melt isn't a bad thing?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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Joined: 09 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: 22:42 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
And heating the world until the ice caps melt isn't a bad thing?

If we’re afraid of change, then no.
Do you think we can stop it?
If we can’t, how should we adapt?
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Bhud
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Oct 2018
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PostPosted: 22:54 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
We could probably adapt by encouraging Russia and Ukraine to enter into peace talks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63625693

Regardless of the politics, 33 million tons of greenhouse gases released into the atmosphere is no joke.

On a more serious note, of course I'm not suggesting something as ridiculous as a state of international peace. Mankind is primed for war, and if it wasn't Russia-Ukraine, it would be something else. With this in mind, it seems naive to enter into international agreements and treaties to curtail greenhouse gases in an effort to reduce the impact of man-made climate change. To do that successfully, you would either first have to change the nature of man, or else be a really successful world dictator. That isn't going to happen. All that's going to happen is, we'll be forced to consume less. This is a slippery slope and it all ends in tears.
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Nute
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 24 Dec 2022
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PostPosted: 08:52 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Thats because those electric scooters are fucking dangerous.


Bollox. No more so than a push bike, and it’s the users choice anyway, except it isn’t because the UK is the last country in Europe to come to a conclusion on their use, one way or the other.

…a lot of people regard motorbikes as fucking dangerous, but it’s still our choice to use them.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
The smaller the wheel the more unstable and twitchy the vehicle is. Those scooters have tiny wheels for their speed.
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Easy-X
Super Spammer



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PostPosted: 09:10 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Electric scooters, electric cars and even bicycles can be dangerous because they make very little noise in transit. Pedestrians are the most important road users, we are told, therefore all silent transport should be banned Wink
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:


Please point me in the direction where an EV car is the same price as an equivalent spec ICE version.

Using a Vauxhall corsa - Cheapeast basic electric £31800
Cheapest basic petrol - £18065
Most expensive basic trim petrol - £24500


That's one area where 'like for like' falls down. Within manufacturers own ranges. If you look at makes like OraCat or MG you'll find an equivalent car for around the same money. How many people buy a brand new bum basic Corsa anyway? Someone in that position would go second hand, in which case a Leaf with a slightly reduced range would probably do fine. Manufacturers are marketing EVs as the 'upper end' of the range at the moment as another way of getting you to want one. That doesn't mean they necessarily need to be.

Also, the current pricing structure is irrelevant. Costs will drop, and therefore prices will drop.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:44 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
Polarbear wrote:


Please point me in the direction where an EV car is the same price as an equivalent spec ICE version.

Using a Vauxhall corsa - Cheapeast basic electric £31800
Cheapest basic petrol - £18065
Most expensive basic trim petrol - £24500


That's one area where 'like for like' falls down. Within manufacturers own ranges. If you look at makes like OraCat or MG you'll find an equivalent car for around the same money. How many people buy a brand new bum basic Corsa anyway? Someone in that position would go second hand, in which case a Leaf with a slightly reduced range would probably do fine. Manufacturers are marketing EVs as the 'upper end' of the range at the moment as another way of getting you to want one. That doesn't mean they necessarily need to be.

Also, the current pricing structure is irrelevant. Costs will drop, and therefore prices will drop.


And that's you twisting the facts to fit your arguement mate. Equivalent ICE vehicles are way cheaper than their electric brothers however you try and twist it.

You can get a Ford Focus with just about all the extras for under £29k which is the starting price for a bog level Nissan Leaf. If an electric car is the same price as an ICE vehicle it is way down in the quality and spec sheet.
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Feasty
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd love to give an electric bike a go, I do a 40mile round commute part of which involves the M1. I don't want to spend a huge amount, my Fazer cost me £1600 and gives me a grin ear to ear and I'd like something that does similar.

For budget prices or 2nd hand, straight away I'm put off as all I can find are Super Soco TS's or similar with ridiculous 25-30mph top speeds. If I want anything remotely useable on a motorway suddenly I'm looking at £10-20k.
Also be it electric cars or bikes, I'm very wary of buying 2nd hand. Batteries don't last like a combustion engine does, and if I decide to garage my bike for months over the winter, surely the battery will suffer as a consequence - even if it's kept on a constant trickle charge.
As for a car, I need to tow a caravan - electric? Don't make me laugh...

Maybe 10yrs from now we'll be in a better place for electric, but for now I'm sticking to what works.
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Previous: Aprilia Habana Retro 50cc (beauty), Yamaha SR125 (fell apart), Honda XR125 (nippy little commuter), Honda SLR650 (Geewhizz), Yamaha Diversion 900S (Smoooooth) written off courtesy of a stupid escaped horse.
(7 year gap), BMW F650 (Relaxing ride). Aprilia Caponord ETV1000 (Big and bold). Yamaha FZS600 (got me in trouble too quick!).
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
[And that's you twisting the facts to fit your arguement mate. Equivalent ICE vehicles are way cheaper than their electric brothers however you try and twist it.

You can get a Ford Focus with just about all the extras for under £29k which is the starting price for a bog level Nissan Leaf. If an electric car is the same price as an ICE vehicle it is way down in the quality and spec sheet.


https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg4-ev

Ok it's not as cheap as the Corsa, but it's cheaper than the Focus, by a long way.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Feasty wrote:
Maybe 10yrs from now we'll be in a better place for electric, but for now I'm sticking to what works.


Unlikely, the central sticking point of EVs - batteries - have limited capacity and recharge where the harsh reality of physics gets in the way.

Hydrogen is a fiercely impractical energy source (whereas both batteries and petrol you have have just sitting around in a suitable container.) A half-way house might have been Natural Gas fuel cells but fossil fuels are ideologically evil and verboten.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
[And that's you twisting the facts to fit your arguement mate. Equivalent ICE vehicles are way cheaper than their electric brothers however you try and twist it.

You can get a Ford Focus with just about all the extras for under £29k which is the starting price for a bog level Nissan Leaf. If an electric car is the same price as an ICE vehicle it is way down in the quality and spec sheet.


https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg4-ev

Ok it's not as cheap as the Corsa, but it's cheaper than the Focus, by a long way.


And you are comparing a Chinese built car with a western produced car. I wouldn't buy a Chinese bike and I won't buy a Chinese car. The playing field you are using is not level.
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