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Why go green,electric and low emmisions?

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A100man
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PostPosted: 13:38 - 10 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
mentalboy wrote:
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-corporate/releases/release-a463299e9046a088b84018a758197588-gm-honda-begin-commercial-production-at-industrys-first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-system-manufacturing-joint-venture

Beyond the, “It only emits water!” city car appeal I can’t see how hydrogen fixes anything. So you’ve made your electricity from wind/solar/tidal (nowhere near enough to meet even existing uses but that’s another matter) but you’re not going to use it for transportation yet, you’re going to use it to hydrolyse water and then create extraordinary pressure to compress the hydrogen into liquid form? Now you’ve got to store it and transport it to regional fuel stops, but the existing petrol/diesel infrastructure isn’t suitable. Besides which, you’ve already incurred considerable efficiency losses. Sounds like a dead end.


Maybe fuel cells don't 'go bad' like batteries do. ICE fule is also plenty inefficient - extraction-refinement-combustion lose at all points. Hydrogen maty be worse (for efficiency) I don't know but I prefer the idea to batteries
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 10 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

Beyond the, “It only emits water!” city car appeal I can’t see how hydrogen fixes anything. So you’ve made your electricity from wind/solar/tidal (nowhere near enough to meet even existing uses but that’s another matter) but you’re not going to use it for transportation yet, you’re going to use it to hydrolyse water and then create extraordinary pressure to compress the hydrogen into liquid form? Now you’ve got to store it and transport it to regional fuel stops, but the existing petrol/diesel infrastructure isn’t suitable. Besides which, you’ve already incurred considerable efficiency losses. Sounds like a dead end.


It's only a dead end if you don't legislate against emissions. Just as EV's would be a dead end if you didn't legislate against emissions.

Let's be honest, you wouldn't see a single EV bar milkfloats if it wasn't for government interference simply because they can't hold a candle to ICE vehicles in any aspect except for emissions. No manufacturer would ever have developed them without government carrots or sticks.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 04:15 - 11 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
mentalboy wrote:
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-corporate/releases/release-a463299e9046a088b84018a758197588-gm-honda-begin-commercial-production-at-industrys-first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-system-manufacturing-joint-venture

Beyond the, “It only emits water!” city car appeal I can’t see how hydrogen fixes anything. So you’ve made your electricity from wind/solar/tidal (nowhere near enough to meet even existing uses but that’s another matter) but you’re not going to use it for transportation yet, you’re going to use it to hydrolyse water and then create extraordinary pressure to compress the hydrogen into liquid form? Now you’ve got to store it and transport it to regional fuel stops, but the existing petrol/diesel infrastructure isn’t suitable. Besides which, you’ve already incurred considerable efficiency losses. Sounds like a dead end.


So folks, henceforth shanks pony it is, obviously barefoot so that we aren't expending vital energy and resources making all those pesky rubber soled boots that we'll be wearing out.
How did we cope when all we had were stables? Petrol stations were hardly part of the infrastructure, until they were.
There is no ideal solution that doesn't involve pre-industrial revolution transport methods and the number of people you can find, who aren't my mother, prepared to accept those methods are not great enough in number to make a difference where it counts, even Greta might kick up a stink if you take away her ability to get all over the world, speedily, to protest.
What is the answer then? Forget all these new-fangled theories and stick with ICE until all the dino goo is gone, keeping our heads firmly buried in the sand so we don't breathe in all the noxious by products?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 11 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
mentalboy wrote:
Forget all these new-fangled theories and stick with ICE until all the dino goo is gone, keeping our heads firmly buried in the sand so we don't breathe in all the noxious by products?


No, that's not the central problem. "Stick with ICE until..." EVs are actually ready for general use.

"But they won't ever be ready! This is chicken & egg Armageddon, people must be forced to used them!!!"

Outside of war, name me anything that works better through the use of force over persuasion Thinking
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 11 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
mentalboy wrote:
So folks, henceforth shanks pony it is, obviously barefoot so that we aren't expending vital energy and resources making all those pesky rubber soled boots that we'll be wearing out.
How did we cope when all we had were stables? Petrol stations were hardly part of the infrastructure, until they were.

There were fewer of us, and even fewer travelled far enough that they couldn’t walk it. We have been able to extract fossil fuels in such great quantities that the modern world was able to be built around private car use. The “15-minute cities” idea is trying to take us back but people won’t have it, the genie is out of the bottle. The most avid supporters of such ideas are middle-class bon viveurs, they’ll never give up their foreign holidays unless everyone else is forced to accept other privations, but they’d like the government to force you to live a peasant life.

mentalboy wrote:
What is the answer then? Forget all these new-fangled theories and stick with ICE until all the dino goo is gone, keeping our heads firmly buried in the sand so we don't breathe in all the noxious by products?

My hope has been that biofuels made from waste fermentation would scale-up enough such that we wouldn’t have to throw out 150 years of ICE development, while keeping the existing delivery infrastructure.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 11 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
The problem wih electric is it has become the greens, the governments and everyone else who whines to the moons' holy grail and nothing must be allowed to oppose it. We use LNG for power stations, to power modern ships with diesels that run on it. Shell already have lorries that run on it but despite it being a great improvement on dino poo it will never be considered for car power because it's not the electric holy grail.

I think it will be the same with any other form of power. Biofuel, hydrogen and whatever else the boffins come up with poopooed because the gov, the greens, the tree huggers and the car industry have all put their eggs in the electric car basket.

I honestly believe that even if someone came up with absolute proof that electric cars were not worth pursuing for the green gain that it would be ignored. As someone said, we are too far down the rabbit hole to change direction.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 12 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
DaddyStu wrote:
A work colleague has a new electric car. He had to go to the airport after work to pick up his wife. He took his electric car home at lunch time to pick up his petrol BMW. Told me cold temperatures near halve the stated range on the leccy one - wasn't confident he could make it.

Not seeing any upside to these things.


I have a Tesla Model 3 Long Range. It's supposed to do 330 miles but I don't think I ever got more than 290 from it ever.

The cold absolutely fucking hammers range. I reckon my range from full at it's worst in the cold was probably about 180 miles at the coldest but it's more like 220 - 240ish for most of the winter.

In all honesty if I was driving around a city centre and had start-stop traffic, it probably would genuinely get near 330 miles on a warm day. The thing that nukes range is speed, so on the motorway that's when electric cars are most inefficient and unfortunately, it's mostly motorway miles that I do.

Charger availability is mixed. Superchargers at motorway service stations will be rammed at peak times and you will be fucked, but outside that you're good almost everywhere. One nice thing about th Tesla navigation is that it knows who's at or heading to superchargers ahead of you (people navigate to superchargers so the battery starts to condition and they charge faster) so it plans it out with your arrival times and will change you to another supercharger somewhere on your route to make sure you don't have to wait (or keep waiting to less than 10 minutes).

The thing about electric cars catching fire more is utter bollocks and pure shite talk:

1. Australian Government figures show that per 100,000 cars, diesel and petrol cars are 83 times more likely to catch fire than an electric car,

2. Swedish Government figures showed that in 2022 3.8 electric cars per 100,000 cars caught fire while petrol and diesel accounted for 68.0 fires per 100,000 cars in the same period.

Source:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
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DaddyStu
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 12 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thats in line with what i've heard from friends/relatives. Maybe companies need to start quoting average annual range figures rather than ideal conditions. More false advertising.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:58 - 12 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
It always goes back to "will it work in a zombie apocalypse?" Siphoning petrol from abandoned cars, easy-peasy. Transferring energy from abandoned EVs? Errrr.... Shocked
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 12 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
A lot of it is the unknown. How much chance is there of the battery dieing and your car becoming worthless? My diesel Jag is 12 years old and runs fine. It will probably run fine for the next 10 years with regular servicing and that's not speculation, there are actual figures to back that up. Once electric cars are regularly going on for 20 years the battery worry will at least be well reduced if not go away but at the moment the figures are pretty much speculative.

It's not the people with money who can afford to drop a hundred grand on an electric car that need to be convinced, it's the poorer people that drop 10 grand on a 10 year old car with the intention of keeping it another 5 years or until it's run into the ground.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 16:23 - 12 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
A lot of it is the unknown. How much chance is there of the battery dieing and your car becoming worthless? My diesel Jag is 12 years old and runs fine. It will probably run fine for the next 10 years with regular servicing and that's not speculation, there are actual figures to back that up. Once electric cars are regularly going on for 20 years the battery worry will at least be well reduced if not go away but at the moment the figures are pretty much speculative.

It's not the people with money who can afford to drop a hundred grand on an electric car that need to be convinced, it's the poorer people that drop 10 grand on a 10 year old car with the intention of keeping it another 5 years or until it's run into the ground.


No it fucking won't Laughing as the previous owner of not one but two diesel Jags there is no chance in hell that car is going to have no EGR or DPF issues in the next 10 years Laughing I call bullshit on it having none in the last 12 years too Laughing
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 12 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
A lot of it is the unknown. How much chance is there of the battery dieing and your car becoming worthless? My diesel Jag is 12 years old and runs fine. It will probably run fine for the next 10 years with regular servicing and that's not speculation, there are actual figures to back that up. Once electric cars are regularly going on for 20 years the battery worry will at least be well reduced if not go away but at the moment the figures are pretty much speculative.

It's not the people with money who can afford to drop a hundred grand on an electric car that need to be convinced, it's the poorer people that drop 10 grand on a 10 year old car with the intention of keeping it another 5 years or until it's run into the ground.


No it fucking won't Laughing as the previous owner of not one but two diesel Jags there is no chance in hell that car is going to have no EGR or DPF issues in the next 10 years Laughing I call bullshit on it having none in the last 12 years too Laughing


You can call bullshit all you want. I have every receipt and work order from new and the biggest outging was a full set of discs and pads which obviously are consumables. Perhaps I drive better than most Whistle because no EGR issues, no DPF issues & 45 mpg on a run. Clapping

But actually this proves a point. Irrespective of any statistics, you are convinced diesel Jags are unreliable. There a lots of people who have bought Teslas and posted on utube or twitter about dead batteries, being locked out of the car, bursting into flames and sh1t range. Even one I saw where Tesla reduced the battery range because said owner somehow hadn't paid for the extended range so was turned off over the net. They aren't going to go back to another Tesla out of choice and everyone who uses utube and twitter sees these posts. A lot of bad press for EV's to overcome.

Doesn't mean they are all bad but......
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DaddyStu
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 12 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:


No it fucking won't Laughing as the previous owner of not one but two diesel Jags there is no chance in hell that car is going to have no EGR or DPF issues in the next 10 years Laughing I call bullshit on it having none in the last 12 years too Laughing


In Easys Zombie apocalypse though we'd just take the bleeding thing out.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 13 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
You can call bullshit all you want. I have every receipt and work order from new and the biggest outging was a full set of discs and pads which obviously are consumables. Perhaps I drive better than most Whistle because no EGR issues, no DPF issues & 45 mpg on a run. Clapping

But actually this proves a point. Irrespective of any statistics, you are convinced diesel Jags are unreliable. There a lots of people who have bought Teslas and posted on utube or twitter about dead batteries, being locked out of the car, bursting into flames and sh1t range. Even one I saw where Tesla reduced the battery range because said owner somehow hadn't paid for the extended range so was turned off over the net. They aren't going to go back to another Tesla out of choice and everyone who uses utube and twitter sees these posts. A lot of bad press for EV's to overcome.

Doesn't mean they are all bad but......


Just admit it that you've actually blanked the EGRs Laughing

I can talk about my experience with my Tesla and with my Jaguar XF and X-Type before it. All three of them shite for various reasons. I did actually love my Jaguar XF, even thought it was only a 3 litre diesel it was comfortable, looked good and I really enjoyed her for years. The only reason I call it a shite car is because of all the EGR and DPF problems it had.

The two best cars I've ever had were my 1997 BMW 540i and then my 2005 BMW 750Li, the latter being the most comfortable car I've ever owned and only beaten to most comfortable I've been in by a Rolls-Royce Cullinan. Both bimmers I've owned unfortunately were taken before their time in smashes (1 fault & 1 non-fault).

Here's a list of the cars I've had from bestest to shitest:

2005 BMW 750Li - written-off (non-fault),
1997 BMW 540i - written-off (fault),
2009 Jaguar XF 3.0D - written-off (non-fault),
2005 Volvo S60 T5 - written-off (non-fault),
2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range,
2002 Nissan Primera 1.8 (petrol) - scrapped,
2004 Toyota Celica 1.8 VVT-i - sold,
2005 Renault Laguna (estate) 1.8 TD - scrapped,
1996 Honda CRV 2.0 (petrol) - written-off (non-fault),
2004 Vauxhall Vectra 1.8 (petrol) - scrapped,
2006 Ford Fiesta 1.25 - sold,
2002 Jaguar X-Type 2.0D - scrapped.

You will note that I've had a load of cars written off. Believe it or not but two of them were Tesco vans reversing into them while they were parked up, one was a farmers gate opening into the road as I was approaching and the final one was an Asian lady ramming into the side of my car at a junction.

The reason there's a load of scrapped cars in there is that I went through a phase of buying a cheap car in cash and running it into the ground. Example is the Renault Laguna, I bought that at an auction for £750 because it had a blown turbo, fitted a reconditioned turbo into it myself and then put moon-miles on it travelling up and down the UK to building sites racking up huge mileage payments until almost two years down the line I was heading back up to Glasgow from a site in Bristol and the turbo went and it went into runaway mode on the M74 just north of Lancaster. I was able to stall it right away but she was not sounding healthy when I started her back up. I was brassic back then so didn't have the money to pay a tow or recovery so I limped it back up the road staying under 1,800 RPM so that the turbo didn't spool up and it fucking worked I got all the way to sight of the off-ramp at Lesmahagow when my luck ran out and it went into full-blown runaway mode. I wasn't able to stop it and it revved it's tits off till the big ends blew apart. Rolled it down the off ramp and some workies who were sitting drinking coffee on the grass verge at the Tesco roundabout came over and helped me push it up onto the grass verge on the other side as it was completely fucking dead. Called my dad to come collect me, phoned a scrappy the next day and got £240 and the scrappy even collected it from where it was.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 13:45 - 13 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Example is the Renault Laguna, I bought that at an auction for £750 because it had a blown turbo, fitted a reconditioned turbo into it myself and then put moon-miles on it travelling up and down the UK to building sites racking up huge mileage payments until almost two years down the line I was heading back up to Glasgow from a site in Bristol and the turbo went and it went into runaway mode on the M74 just north of Lancaster. I was able to stall it right away but she was not sounding healthy when I started her back up. I was brassic* back then so didn't have the money to pay a tow or recovery so I limped it back up the road staying under 1,800 RPM so that the turbo didn't spool up and it fucking worked I got all the way to sight of the off-ramp at Lesmahagow when my luck ran out and it went into full-blown runaway mode. I wasn't able to stop it and it revved it's tits off till the big ends blew apart. Rolled it down the off ramp and some workies who were sitting drinking coffee on the grass verge at the Tesco roundabout came over and helped me push it up onto the grass verge on the other side as it was completely fucking dead. Called my dad to come collect me, phoned a scrappy the next day and got £240 and the scrappy even collected it from where it was.


Laughing

BTW I believe it's Borassic btw, as in Borassic Flint - Skint (alt. Boracic Lint a medical dressing)'.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 13 Feb 2024    Post subject: Reply with quote
A100man wrote:

Laughing

BTW I believe it's Borassic btw, as in Borassic Flint - Skint (alt. Boracic Lint a medical dressing)'.


Fuck Laughing ok well i was skint as fuck
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