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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 15:01 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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senna_f4 wrote: | While everyone has their own views on how something should be done a few questions?
1. How does anyone know that the lolipop incident is correctly conveyed by the BBC? Was the BBC reporter there when the girl allegedly offered to bin the sweet/burst out crying? How verbal was the girl? Has she been doing this before, and the council waited till they could catch her red handed? Has she been warned verbally before?
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I'm quite prepared to believe that the answers to any of the above could go against the girl - I'm not defending her actions, I'm questioning the enforcement mechanism.
It's a rather extreme comparison, but consider my role at work. As a senior officer, I can withdraw detainees privileges, move their room, place them in secure location, place them in segregation, cancel their visits, strip search them, spin their room for contraband, and basically do anything I like up to and including authorising the use of (painful) force to enforce compliance.
However, I work to clearly defined and freely available rules. I wear a namebadge identifying my rank and position, and carry a Home Office badge that authorises me to exercise powers granted to me by an act of parliment.
Any detainee who sees me instantly knows who I am, what I can do, and who/what authorises me to do it. The same applies to any of us who see a policeman, or a soldier, etc.
How does that apply to the above situations. ____________________ >Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you... |
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senna_f4 |
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senna_f4 Scooby Slapper
Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 15:05 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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M James,
So my understanding is you have no objection to the fineing but what worries you is an "off-duty" worker caught the culprit
I see no problem in that, why?
1. You girlfriend is being raped by a physco, an off duty policeman passes by and saves your girlfriend, but sadly the off-duty officer is fired and imprisoned for enforcing the law while off-duty.
2. off-duty prison office spots escaped child rapist/murderer and risking his life manages to pin him down and drag him to the nearby police station. Sadly pedo sues off-duty police officer for doing his duties while off-duty
I think there is too much of slack, the council should fine people such as this, and BBC should responsibly report the news, sensational journalism is for the tabloids. ____________________ "You don't know the power of the dark side." |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 15:10 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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senna_f4 wrote: | M James,
So my understanding is you have no objection to the fineing but what worries you is an "off-duty" worker caught the culprit
I see no problem in that, why?
1. You girlfriend is being raped by a physco, an off duty policeman passes by and saves your girlfriend, but sadly the off-duty officer is fired and imprisoned for enforcing the law while off-duty.
2. off-duty prison office spots escaped child rapist/murderer and risking his life manages to pin him down and drag him to the nearby police station. Sadly pedo sues off-duty police officer for doing his duties while off-duty
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WTF?!
Are you winding me up? ____________________ >Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you... |
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senna_f4 |
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senna_f4 Scooby Slapper
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Skunkcap Freddie |
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Skunkcap Freddie Brolly Dolly
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Karma :
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Posted: 16:24 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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just blank them.
not like they can put there hand in your pocket and take your id out.
unless they've a copper besides them i won't stop.
maybe laugh in there face ____________________ Northern Irish Biker? www.nibikers.com |
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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 16:42 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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senna_f4 wrote: | Mister James wrote: |
WTF?!
Are you winding me up? |
Sorry if i did offend you, but no I wasn't trying to wind you up, but a response to
"Some of the stories mentioned above seem to imply that an 'off-duty' council employee has the power to take away my moolah on a whim, with no evidence required, nor any indication of this exalted status and position that he seems to have. " |
I know which part you were referring to, and I wasn't offended as such, just curious as to how you could've missed what I was trying to get across.
I'm also curious as to why you are looking at the 'off-duty' portion of my sentence, without examining the rest of it.
Your previous examples are also irrelevant or misinformed, because even a police officer has to identify themselves as such, or else you are justified in resisting.
Likewise, while a prison officer does have powers to use force to restrain a prisoner outside the prison walls, there are clearly defined circumstances in which he can do so, and he needs to be carrying his Home Office ID and identify himself as an officer, or else it is simply assault.
Allow me to remind you of my previous comments
Mister James wrote: | I'm simply against unelected nobodies having the power to fine me without recourse to the courts or the police. |
Mister James wrote: | Who decides which council employees are suitable to wield these powers, and what reassurances do I have that they have been trained and checked and assessed before being given them? How do I know who is empowered to enforce this regulations, can any grey-suited clerk working at Harrow Civic Centre tell tales on me and get me fined? Why would their word be counted above mine, when even a police officer has to go to court and allow a Bench to assess the weight of his word against mine? |
Mister James wrote: | I work to clearly defined and freely available rules. I wear a namebadge identifying my rank and position, and carry a Home Office badge that authorises me to exercise powers granted to me by an act of parliment.
Any detainee who sees me instantly knows who I am, what I can do, and who/what authorises me to do it. The same applies to any of us who see a policeman, or a soldier, etc.
How does that apply to the above situations.
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I think that sums up my point in a clear and consistent manner, rather than your concentration on the 'off-duty' comment - which I still hold to be relevant in any case. ____________________ >Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you... |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 16:58 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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What Mr James is getting at, and I think he put it a lot better than I can is that what gives a council worker the right to arbitrarily decide you are guilty of an offence and punish you for it?
It is so open to abuse and miscarriages of justice. This is because this type of action is circumventing the established system of crime and punishment ie. the Executive passes the law, the Judiciary enforces it. Many of these by-laws have the executive acting as the enforcement authority, with no burden of proof. Even a civil offence has to be proven 'on the balance of probability'.
Just to give you an example. My younger brother had a case where a council parking warden falsely claimed to have attached a parking ticket to his car. Now, as it was, there were five independant witnesses to this fact. The fine was revoked and the parking attendant was instructed to provide my brother with a written appology. What would the outcome have been if he had been by himself?
Then we get into the whole sticky issue of proportionality. Someone throwing an apple core out of their car window would be fined the same as someone throwing a boot full of black bags out in a local beauty spot. The fine is arbitrary and does not take into account the relative seriousness of the offence.
On a more personal note. I reckon there would be a lot less fly tipping and general littering if the councils wised up and realised that the way to reduce landfill is not to give people smaller bins and refuse to take anything that isn't in it. This is what happens in my town so if you produce more than a binful of rubbish in a week, what the bloody hell do they expect you to do with it?
Put it in somebody elses bin? Then what the hell is that person supposed to do? Put it out in a bag? The binmen wont take it then the council turn up and root through the bag looking for something with your address on so they can fine you. Take it to the skip site 15 miles away? Make sure there is nothing identifying it as yours and throw it in a laybye?
Well, people do the latter.
If you want to reduce landfill, find a way of reducing packaging. I generate a horrendous amount of rubbish, most of which is totally unecessary packaging. I don't want the stuff, I don't look for the stuff and making my bin smaller can in no way make it any less. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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map |
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map Mr Calendar
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zaknafien |
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zaknafien
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
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senna_f4 |
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senna_f4 Scooby Slapper
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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 17:46 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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stinkwheel wrote: | What Mr James is getting at, and I think he put it a lot better than I can is that what gives a council worker the right to arbitrarily decide you are guilty of an offence and punish you for it?
It is so open to abuse and miscarriages of justice. This is because this type of action is circumventing the established system of crime and punishment ie. the Executive passes the law, the Judiciary enforces it. Many of these by-laws have the executive acting as the enforcement authority, with no burden of proof. Even a civil offence has to be proven 'on the balance of probability'.
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Exactly my point, and put far more succinctly than I managed. To compound my bumbling, I rated it 'Interesting' by mistake, instead of 'Insightful'!
map wrote: |
Can someone help me out here? I think there's a legal loophole dating back to the Magna Carta that says any fine has to be imposed by a court. There was a guy trying to use it for a driving offence I think
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Exactly correct, as Kickstart has pointed out, the loophole is avoided by referring to the fines as 'charges'. One assumes that any court action would be based on non-payment of the 'charge', rather than actually specifically prosecuting the alleged offence - exactly the kind of legal trickery I'm desperately not keen on. ____________________ >Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you... |
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 17:51 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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senna_f4 wrote: | 1. Should a lolipop case go to court while a muderer waits trial? |
Yes, that is the job of the court. A fixed penalty can be issued, but legally the fine cannot be increased once offered.
senna_f4 wrote: | 2. Should a police officer be present for every small anoyance? |
Yes
senna_f4 wrote: | 3. What about the safety of the council staff, I know your point, but say you wear a name badge. |
Name badge may have down sides, but at the very least they should have an obvious number which can easily be traced to the individual person when complaints are made.
senna_f4 wrote: | 4. Are things like this realistic in the UK? Do we want 10 million oficers, 1 million judges all paid fat salaries to deal with littering, parking tickets? |
If the alternative is mob rule (with council appointed mobs) then yes. In reality if rules are sensible then most people will keep to them and few individuals will need to be dealt with.
senna_f4 wrote: | 5. Would people care to pay a council tax of £20,000 to fund this extravagent policing sytem? |
Where did you get that figure from? Or are you basing it on your figure of 10m officers (basically 1 in 3 of the population of working age). Reality is nothing like that number would be needed.
All the best
Keith ____________________ Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing |
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
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map |
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map Mr Calendar
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senna_f4 |
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senna_f4 Scooby Slapper
Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 17:59 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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Stinkwheel,
I am sorry to hear of what happened to your brother.
By the way I do not work for the council
I agree with almost all your points on waste etc, but I would point out;
1. Fines aren't fair to the victim and how do you make a realistic fair fine?
"Then we get into the whole sticky issue of proportionality. Someone throwing an apple core out of their car window would be fined the same as someone throwing a boot full of black bags out in a local beauty spot. The fine is arbitrary and does not take into account the relative seriousness of the offence. "
Are you seriously suggesting that the council build a database of all possible waste and fine accordingly?
So according to the proportianity rule would fine for the core from a "granny smith" apple would be more than the pips of a "conference" pear? Or wait
should a old thong be fined less than a tent?
or omg I am running mad,
Sorry Mr.James this is an automated reply with reference to your e-mails "Naturally, the 3 emails I have sent to the council about various matters go unanswered - I'm struggling to understand why my £1400 a year goes"
as the councilors are busy trying debating wether the fine for the core from a "granny smith" apple would be more than the pips of a "conference" pear. Please do nto reply to this e-mail.
My point is that many of the points trying to fine tune the law may not be practical, where is the cut off point?
Sorry if I so cause any unnecessary offence, my apologies ____________________ "You don't know the power of the dark side." |
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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 18:01 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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senna_f4 wrote: |
1. Should a lolipop case go to court while a muderer waits trial?
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That's what the court system is for. It's also worth noting that a murder trial takes months and is held at the crown court. A simple case of littering would be held in a magistrates court - and thus be judged by JP's, Crown-appointed members of the community in which the alleged offence took place, whose entire mandate is based around dealing with such affairs.
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2. Should a police officer be present for every small anoyance?
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Quite frankly, yes, if punitive action is required. Police officers are trained, authorised and paid to deal with people breaking the law.
Council employees are not.
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3. What about the safety of the council staff, I know your point, but say you wear a name badge. Even if you lawfully did things within your rights I could tracer where you live just using the name and do something bad? Who is to protect their staff? The few people who should shaow their names are police officers.
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Good point re. the name, however, I have been informed that I have to display my ID and badge because authority should always be accountable. The poor benighted Foreign Gentlemen that I persecute have the right to know who is doing what to them.
If they have the right to know that, (despite not having the right to be in the country) how much more so do I - a British Citizen - have the right to know who is accusing me of what, and by what authority?
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4. Are things like this realistic in the UK? Do we want 10 million oficers, 1 million judges all paid fat salaries to deal with littering, parking tickets?
5. Would people care to pay a council tax of £20,000 to fund this extravagent policing sytem?
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Keith has already outlined several flaws in the current system that, if addressed, would cut flytipping. I agree there should be action against litter and antisocial behaviour, I just don't see why that should involve devolving draconian powers to those who should not be wielding them. ____________________ >Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you... |
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craigie b |
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craigie b Citizen Smith
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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
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craigie b |
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craigie b Citizen Smith
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 19:59 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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Another point is the bloody-minded application of these rules. I for one couldn't give a shit if some lass left a lolly stick lying. You always could be ticketed for littering but a policeman would almost certainly have told the lass to "Go and put it in the bin and don't let me catch you leaving litter lying about again." and left it at that.
I'm pretty sure what will have happened is the council litter warden will have thought "I have to issue 60 fines before the end of the week to meet my performance target, 1 down, 59 to go.". With a healthy dose of "I'm wearing a peaked cap and am therefore important. I will now prove it by overzelously applying the small amount of power I have been given."
Crap like that gets right up my nose, they do themselves no favours. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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senna_f4 |
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senna_f4 Scooby Slapper
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Posted: 20:23 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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senna_f4 |
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senna_f4 Scooby Slapper
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Posted: 20:30 - 11 May 2006 Post subject: |
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stinkwheel wrote: |
I'm pretty sure what will have happened is the council litter warden will have thought "I have to issue 60 fines before the end of the week to meet my performance target, 1 down, 59 to go.". With a healthy dose of "I'm wearing a peaked cap and am therefore important. I will now prove it by overzelously applying the small amount of power I have been given."
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Stinkwheel I agree on what you say about the warning, but you suerly cannot with your heart blame the litter warden for a fault that we create.
Why should a litter warden be gauged on that performance?
1. Have you complained to your council about that, and as a responsible citizen would you support the person if he/she got sacked?
Many of us have well paid jobs, I believe you are a vet, imagine if the government paid you on every chicken you saved from bird flu, say if 60 chickens had bird flu and you don't cure 59 you get sacked.
If you faked the result, I of all people would support you, as I understand you have no choice, say if you had a family to take care of.
Parking ticket targets etc are crap, but not the poor people who are doing it for a job. Not all litter wardens are bad ____________________ "You don't know the power of the dark side." |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 18 years, 28 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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