Councils too powerful?

[Mister James]

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4758517.stm

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/4741120.stm

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/2955239.stm

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/3570368.stm

Has anyone else noticed that un-badged council 'officers' are getting sweeping powers to fine us for minor offenses?

Why do they have the right to do this, and who are they that their word would be believed above ours?

For example, I hold the same clearance levels as a police officer or prison officer, I exercise sweeping powers in the course of my duties - far beyond those of a litter warden.

Knowing that, how could his/her word be counted against mine in a court of law? What method of evidence gathering do they have? Do these fines rely on the 'criminal' confessing?

Why is it that minor fines like this/parking fines/speeding fines/council tax arrears are chased so vociferously, while 'real criminals' seldom have to pay their way?

It's really irritating me at the moment. I've worked for The Man almost my entire adult life, and I like to be able to respect authority. What I can't understand is why unelected and unbadged busybodies can have so much control over my life.
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>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...

[Kickstart]

[Mister James]

[Kickstart]

[Mister James]

[senna_f4]

Sorry Mr James, but I don't understand why this person should not be fined a measly £100
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/4741120.stm

Imagine you riding behind him;
1. Covered in chippy crap
2. Cover your helmet in the chippy wraping, unable to see and running over the little 6 year old kid riding its bike in the lawn after you lose control and squashing it to end its young life?

I tell you if I met some loser tossing crap like that he will suerly get something more steep than just a measly £100 fine.

Whilst I will not comment on the other links, as I do respect you opinion but where does the council draw the line?

Is it ok for me if I was 16 to leave a melting lolipop on your motorcycle seat, if my friend calls me while i am in the bike park?

Whilst I understand the points you raise, I am also aware that people who work for the council are like me and you. I bet you have moments in your job where you were frustrated a the measly punishments given out.

This is just my opinion, so please do not take any offence,
Thanks
____________________
"You don't know the power of the dark side."

[veeeffarr]

[stinkwheel]

*Throws cigarette butt on ground*

"You just threw that cigarette butt on the ground"

"No I didn't."

"Yes you did, I saw you, that's a £75 fine."

"I did no such thing, you're making it up. Liar, Liar!"

"I'm issuing a ticket fining you £75."

"For what?"

"For littering."

"Didn't do it, wasn't me."

"Well you can appeal this but it could result in a fine of.... etc."

"Can I ask you a question?"

"Go ahead."

"Can you spell corroborration? Do you know what it means?"

"Why?"

"Because you'll need to when I take this to court and it is your word against mine."
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[byke95]

[veeeffarr]

I imagine the DNA kits some of them carry can be used to test ciggy butts as well, but that's probably bollocks.

[senna_f4]

I am very sorry, but I simply don't understand what is wrong in trying to keep the city clean?
1. A kid pinches your stuff, everyone screams and kicks telling how lame the government is.
2. Some one gets done for littering, everone moans about how bad the council is.
3. Someone skids and breaks both legs on a bannana peel, everyone moans and bitches how slack the council is.

I think people who litter the city etc should be fined heavily, where do you think your tax goes into, cleaning peoples crap they leave.

Why do you think the kids of today vandalise your property, just because they don't get told off or fined for the havoc they cause.

Now what I feel is good down here is this sort of treatment for all the vandals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay

*Throws cigarette butt on ground*

"You just threw that cigarette butt on the ground"

"No I didn't."

"Sir, bend over"

"No"

*burly men grab him, into the classic doggy positon and strip him*

"Nooooooo!!!!"

*12 storkes of the finest cane on the bare butt of the offender*

"wimper, wimper"

"Sir this is your £1450 fine and a sentance to 4 months in prison"

"You can't do it, I will take you to court"

"sure, go on ahead"

"you will lose you a**holes" *My arse hurts*

"Can I ask you a question?"

"Go ahead."

"Can you spell corroborration? Do you know what it means?"

"Why?"

"Because you'll get thah when you go to court and it is your word against ours."

*litterman leaves to prison for a spell of hard labour, with a sore a** and a very light pocket*




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"You don't know the power of the dark side."

[BFG]

But are these not civil issues? Or do they have powers on the statute books?

[zaknafien]

[Kickstart]

[Mister James]

Senna - I'm not supporting littering, I agree it's unpleasant and potentially hazardous.

I'm simply against unelected nobodies having the power to fine me without recourse to the courts or the police.

It seems like well-paid apparatchiks in local government have more power than the 'real' authorities.
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>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...

[senna_f4]

[Kickstart]

Councils are connected with the police, and have limited say.

The example you gave is the fault of the courts. But if the council was dealing with it they would have issued a ticket against those he ran over for failing to use the green cross code (irrespectibe of whether they were crossing the road), while ignoring the driver and hoping the police would deal with him.

Worst thing is how skewed the penalties are. If dropping litter deserved a £75 penalty, then how much should the penalty be for assault? Same scale probably the death penalty.

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Mister James]

[innominate]

In general I would like to see local government with more power & more independance from the main government. Effectivly replaceing the national government in all but unavoidably national issues, the armed forces for example.

As associate myself with living in Liverpool more than living in England. I don't give a flying fuck what happens in London & the south in general, it could sink for all I care.





That aside,
The littering fines etc.
They are just another way to try and discourage whatever people are being fined for. Sure , it would be much better to have discouragement that does not invole any monetary fine.
But I have no idea what you could implement in their place.
Unless its some kind of forced brainwashing, that "tho shalt not litter."
____________________
I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable.

[G]

People littering are made to pick up litter for an hour or whatever?

I always liked the idea of making the punishment fit the crime.

However it would seem fair from the above cases for them to at least use some reason - ie do it once and get a warning, do it again and get a fine.


Definitely agree on the levels of crime / punishment.
Especially after I got a massive fine for something I now believe I was innocent off (vehicle stuff) when I see people doing massively 'worse' stuff than me and getting only slightly more.

[Mrs Kickstart]

Hi,

as a total asside only a Court can inpose a fine, the councils impose charges.

You get a Parking charge notice, not a parking fine from the council etc.

Make them harder to collect if you dont pay

Regards
C
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Help fight the safety camera partnerships -- www.pepipoo.com

[Mister James]

Surely then, you could avoid paying any littering charge as long as you weren't standing underneath a no littering sign?

They would never have enough evidence to take such a thing to court against your word - and if you were not reasonably informed of a charge, how can you be expected to pay it?
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>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...

[senna_f4]

While everyone has their own views on how something should be done a few questions?
1. How does anyone know that the lolipop incident is correctly conveyed by the BBC? Was the BBC reporter there when the girl allegedly offered to bin the sweet/burst out crying? How verbal was the girl? Has she been doing this before, and the council waited till they could catch her red handed? Has she been warned verbally before?

I think many of this stuff is not as dramatic as it sounds, me thinks this person might not be an angel as BBC's sensational journalism suggests.

also while this sounds good G, lets see

1. You litter you clean, sounds fair to me.
By implication;
2. your graffati a wall you clean it, fair as well
3. you rape someone you become a policeman preventing rape, should be fair as well, can't fine someone can we?
4. You kill some one, you spend the rest of your life as a policemn preventing murder, sounds very fair.

Of course not, where do you draw the line?

I saw this incident;
1. young, healthy girl parks on disabled parking spot (too lazy to walk)
2. trafic warden clamps her car
4. old disabled person arrives, no place to park, parks in non diabled area, needs help to go inside building
5. Girl arrives and gives right bollocking to car park warden for clamping her.

From what I understand the girl is in the right isn't she, councils are too powerful. Poor sexy girl, if she walked a bit she would shed too many pounds

I do agree that the punishment should fit the crime, but the law should also be blind.

Trust me if I was judge dred, the girl would permanetly use the disabled parking lot , such a sweet thing wouldn't get clamped or fined.
____________________
"You don't know the power of the dark side."

[Mister James]

[innominate]

Mby this is the real reason the Government is getting rid of trial by Jury
____________________
I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable.