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Rogerborg nimbA
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Lord Percy |
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arry |
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB |
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB World Chat Champion
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB |
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB World Chat Champion
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Falco |
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Falco Traffic Copper
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Posted: 22:16 - 18 Jul 2017 Post subject: |
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asta1 wrote: | Re point 2;
Driverless cars may well be expensive. However, this was primarily in respose to your claims that software can't understand rain or snow. Take a modern range rover for instance. It's not cheap (£150K in decent spec?), but it as an abs and monitoring system which can distinguish between gravel, ice, mud and tarmac and select a pre-defined driving mode (throttle, braking, cornering) to suit. If JLR can do it, presumably for less than £10K/unit, why not train manufacturers. |
That isn't really the same thing though. It can tell what sort of modifications to the input are helpful in those conditions (and make a decent guess at when those conditions are occurring) but that is a far cry from being able to supply those inputs itself, in response to a dynamically changing situation.
asta1 wrote: | As another example, take Tesla. Now, don't get me wrong, these cars cannot quite drive autonomously on the public highway safely enough for a governemtn to risk with public transport. However, again, a rail system is much simpler. I propse that this exact software 'can' in its current form; respond to a previously uploaded defined signal, possibly assisted with GPS or wifi input, an decelerate to a stop in clearly defined conditions within a clearly defined distance. That's all that a train needs to do. It doesn't need to steer, it doesn't need to overtake, it doesn't need to route plan and most importantly it doesn't need to deal with other rail users (Human managed route planners should sort this well ahead of time when deciding the schedule). Trains, as far as software goes, are much, much easier than cars. |
Tesla (and others) autopilots can't drive cars any more than cruise controls can. The range of inputs they can meaningfully interact with is quite small (and even so don't always work - see my previous link where the driver had his hands off the wheel for all but 30 seconds of the 45 minute journey). They work, but only for a limited set of circumstances and responding to complex traffic flows is not amongst them.
asta1 wrote: | As for comms. Good point. It's going to be expensive, it needs to be reliable and it needs to have multiple failsafes. But, the internet can do this. It's already integral to most of our services, so it's not such a strech to rely on it once again. Plus, for many trains, there's already infrastructure for electricity, GPS tracking and even onboard wifi, so some comms wire shouldn't be impossible. |
I am not at all sure the internet can actually do this. As far as I know the emergency services don't use the internet for telemetry/communication, it has its own network (as of July supposedly). I would say that major public transit systems would also need their own, parallel infrastructure for such things. GPS? Not sure the publicly available civilian satellites would give good enough resolution (I think it is 2 meters or something) for actually controlling a train with no driver).
I am very much in agreement with you that these are all solvable problems, they are just expensive ones
asta1 wrote: | Re point 4:
ROI. Yep, were not talking a couple of years for this. However, what was the ROI for the channel tunnel, the motorway network, HS2 or even the rail network originally? Governments aren't as directly beholden to stakeholders, so a long term project with high cost, but tangible long term benefit can go ahead. In terms of service and long term cost reduction, this ticks the box. In terms of long term employment and therefore political appetitie for the initiative? Not so much. |
Yup, that is exactly the problem. Long term thinking is not very much in fashion at the moment.
Ta for the well thought out response! It's a really interesting problem. I don't think it will be a technological problem that sees us get autonomous cars before autonomous trains. ____________________ I tell you what, mathematically, I'm having it |
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Falco Traffic Copper
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Ste Not Work Safe
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Lupo |
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Lupo Trackday Trickster
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Posted: 00:19 - 19 Jul 2017 Post subject: |
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arry wrote: | So that wouldn't be possible if the driver was a microprocessor? |
Yes if you put enough money into it. You still will need people in the control room to deal with those emergencies, then the flexibility to change the programmed route of a train quickly. A system to check what stations are or not manned. Every car in a train, for not saying every passenger alarm , will need a two way communication system, aka a radio. And you are depending on customers to carry out instructions given remotely by some bloke.
There is more but for the sake of brevity lets say that it will be insanely expensive and the more stuff you add to a system the more prone to failure it becomes, something that railways cannot afford.
mpd72 wrote: | Because when there's a strike Southern still get paid but the treasury doesn't get the ticket revenue and also has to pay refunds. |
Oh yeah, lets not blame the Government for signing the most stupid contract ever. You will run Southern, we guarantee you x amount of revenue and if you don't, we will pay the difference and do not worry if you run a shit service, we will pay compensation to customers too.
Southern is making a mint out of the conflict. 50 million so far paid by the Government. With millions more saved in maintenance as it has operated a reduced service. ____________________ A por ellos, que son pocos y cobardes. |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 09:55 - 19 Jul 2017 Post subject: |
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Lupo wrote: |
Oh yeah, lets not blame the Government for signing the most stupid contract ever. You will run Southern, we guarantee you x amount of revenue and if you don't, we will pay the difference and do not worry if you run a shit service, we will pay compensation to customers too.
Southern is making a mint out of the conflict. 50 million so far paid by the Government. With millions more saved in maintenance as it has operated a reduced service. |
Oh yeah, let's not blame the union for being the sole reason, the vast majority of the time, that this contract and service is shit.
I thought the lefties were all for the state getting rail revenue and any profits involved?
If the union would stop fecking about purely to attack the Tories, whilst pretending it's a trade dispute, the treasury could have been making a nice little profit over the last couple of years, instead of handing it to a train company like they do with the other franchises.
Turning down a 24% pay rise to bring a 4 day week to over £60K is nonsense. It's quite clear that Southern could offer the moon on a stick and the unions would still call strikes to hurt the Tory government. It's a farce. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
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Suntan Sid |
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Suntan Sid World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:09 - 19 Jul 2017 Post subject: |
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mpd72 wrote: | If the union would stop fecking about purely to attack the Tories, whilst pretending it's a trade dispute, the treasury could have been making a nice little profit over the last couple of years, instead of handing it to a train company like they do with the other franchises.
Turning down a 24% pay rise to bring a 4 day week to over £60K is nonsense. It's quite clear that Southern could offer the moon on a stick and the unions would still call strikes to hurt the Tory government. It's a farce. |
If the shareholders, of the parent company running the franchise, would stop fecking about and agree terms, the problem would go away.
But the fact remains, as long as there are people on strike the greater the shareholder's profits, (people on strike don't get paid)!
As usual public money disappearing into the bottomless pit of shareholder profits, for very little in return.
There is no incentive whatsoever for the franchise operator to resolve the problem, they get paid whatever happens, profits go up; even when they fcuk it up the government just hands them more cash.
The franchise operator's top priority is to maximise its profits for its shareholders, (its customers and the government are secondary concerns), currently the shareholders are laughing all the way to the bank!
But you knew all this anyway, it was discussed, ad nauseam, in the previous thread you started! ____________________ "Everybody needs money, that's why they call it money!" |
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Falco |
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Falco Traffic Copper
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 328 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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