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Junior Doctors strike?
Bike Chat Forums Index -> Politics & Current Affairs	Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49 Next

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Itchy
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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Posted: 08:57 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Junior doc wrote:

I intend to stay here for this coming year as I am about to enter the last year of my current phase of training.

Then depending on what next year is like I will decide on what I am going to do. If working conditions deteriorate significantly because of this new contract I will certainly be looking at jobs outside of the NHS in England.

Tung Wah hospital group is always hiring. The PLABs are extremely tough though. Doctors average at £7000 a month which you only pay an effective rate of 12% income tax.
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Monkeywrenche...
Nearly there...

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
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Posted: 11:24 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Sload wrote:

That one went right over the top didn't it Laughing

to be fair I was keeping my wifes drinking in check last night by exhausting supplies Very Happy

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Junior doc
Borekit Bruiser

Joined: 17 Feb 2016
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Posted: 13:05 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Itchy wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

Tung Wah hospital group is always hiring. The PLABs are extremely tough though. Doctors average at £7000 a month which you only pay an effective rate of 12% income tax.

Yes there are lots of opportunities out there for doctors at that moment. All you seem to need at the moment is an @doctors.org email address and you get bombarded with adverts and emails for job opportunities overseas. Most recent one I clicked on was an application for a placement in Australia that was prepopulated! If I was interested literally all I had to do was check the form, fill out a few other bits and send it back.

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lihp
World Chat Champion

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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Posted: 14:26 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Junior doc wrote:

Then you should have to pay back the cost of your training.
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Monkeywrenche...
Nearly there...

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
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Posted: 14:41 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

lihp wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

Then you should have to pay back the cost of your training.

why? He's not obliged to, no one asked him to as a condition of his training.
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Junior doc
Borekit Bruiser

Joined: 17 Feb 2016
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Posted: 15:07 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

lihp wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

Then you should have to pay back the cost of your training.

That was not something I agreed to when I started studying medicine and if an arrangement like that had been in effect I am almost certain I would not have gone into medicine.

If that is what the public/government feels needs to be implemented then they will have to introduce it for new students studying medicine as I'm not sure that it would be very easy or even legal to implement retrospectively to doctors already working.

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Rogerborg
nimbA

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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Posted: 15:43 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Junior doc wrote:

if an arrangement like that had been in effect I am almost certain I would not have gone into medicine.

Given that you're planning to take the training that my taxes paid for and use it for the benefit of antipodeans, you'll understand that I wish that you hadn't.
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-Matt-
World Chat Champion

Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Karma : Excellent Karma (Level 4)

Posted: 15:52 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Rogerborg wrote:

Given that you're planning to take the training that my taxes paid for and use it for the benefit of antipodeans, you'll understand that I wish that you hadn't.

Why just wish when you could try and make a change to the funding rules Wink

make a petition, write to your MP; all those sort of really productive things Whistle

.

Either way I don't see how its the doctors fault, or why they should feel particularly bad personally if they don't have to "pay back" their training costs and decide to go abroad because working conditions get so bad here - perhaps if they started with the sole intention to then go abroad yes; but I don't think thats the case for most. As mentioned too, "training costs" aren't just paying for their education, its paying for them to be educated whilst working in their role - much of that cost to the NHS/government would still need to be met by someone else in terms of the working hours and service they provide whilst "training".

If theres a problem to be solved its NHS staff retention rates and the underlying causes for those problems. Having a go at or blaming the staff for having had enough and going abroad isn't going solve anything.

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Junior doc
Borekit Bruiser

Joined: 17 Feb 2016
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Posted: 16:01 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Rogerborg wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

if an arrangement like that had been in effect I am almost certain I would not have gone into medicine.

Given that you're planning to take the training that my taxes paid for and use it for the benefit of antipodeans, you'll understand that I wish that you hadn't.

Yes I can understand people's frustration at this.

I am guessing tax payers in India and other countries have also been pretty frustrated that their doctors who they equally spend a lot of money training frequently choose to move abroad often to the NHS.

Until there is a system in place in England that either incentivises doctors staying or acts as a disincentive for them leaving we will see UK trained doctors leaving the NHS in England. I must admit I initially hoped that this new junior doctor contract would be seen as an opportunity within the government to incentivise doctors to stay in England; unfortunately as we see now it has done the exact opposite and has acted as a huge disincentive to doctors staying in England. Unfortunately falling numbers of junior doctors in hospitals itself acts as a further disincentive so we may well find staffing numbers for doctors caught in a vicious spiral downwards.

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Lord Percy
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Joined: 03 Aug 2012
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Posted: 16:57 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Junior doc wrote:

That was not something I agreed to when I started studying medicine and if an arrangement like that had been in effect I am almost certain I would not have gone into medicine.

So you really would not have stayed and worked for the NHS, if the deal was that the government part-funds your training in return for you staying X years?

Really?

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Junior doc
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016
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Posted: 17:36 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Lord Percy wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

That was not something I agreed to when I started studying medicine and if an arrangement like that had been in effect I am almost certain I would not have gone into medicine.

So you really would not have stayed and worked for the NHS, if the deal was that the government part-funds your training in return for you staying X years?

Really?

I guess it would come down to the detail to a certain extent if the government part-funds our training as they do now but we have to stay in for 2 years post qualification then I would not have a problem with that, as essentially that is pretty much the situation we have now anyway.

Anymore than 2 years and I probably would not have applied but would have continued in my old job. Equally if I had not started when I did, before the £9000 tuition fees came into effect, I probably would not have chosen to study medicine either as I had a previous degree so had to fund the tuition fees myself even with loans this would have left me with more debt than I feel comfortable with!

If medicine had a similar system to the one for doctors who train to join the military; where the degree is fully funded. They have all their fees paid in full plus get a salary from their third year of study in exchange for 6 years service post foundation course then I probably would have studied medicine.

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Junior doc
Borekit Bruiser

Joined: 17 Feb 2016
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Posted: 17:39 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

mpd72 wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

Really? How much does it cost to print off a fake certificate from the "Medical University of excellence (Mumbai ltd)"?

I don't know, maybe you should ask the next Indian doctor you see that question and see how it goes down with them

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Sload
World Chat Champion

Joined: 28 Aug 2011
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Posted: 17:40 - 20 May 2016 Post subject:

They probably wouldn't no but it will be down to the specifics of the contract and whether the individual thought the cost benefit ratio was fair which will obviously swing against if contracts are changed to the detriment of the individual. I'm operating under the presumption that not everyone is capable of being a doctor (which they blatently are not), the long study and training requirements and the costs on the individual to start. Are we assuming that work based training means they are not earning their keep on the job then? ____________________ Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

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Junior doc
Borekit Bruiser

Joined: 17 Feb 2016
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Posted: 17:55 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Sload wrote:

They probably wouldn't no but it will be down to the specifics of the contract and whether the individual thought the cost benefit ratio was fair which will obviously swing against if contracts are changed to the detriment of the individual.

I'm operating under the presumption that not everyone is capable of being a doctor (which they blatently are not), the long study and training requirements and the costs on the individual to start.
Are we assuming that work based training means they are not earning their keep on the job then?

Work based training does not mean junior doctors don't earn their keep on the job. We are talking about a 48 hour a week contract of which only 1-2 hours a week are dedicated to training the rest of the time is working on the wards, in clinics, operating on people in theatres etc. Sure if an opportunity comes up to observe or practice a procedure that the doctor is not yet fully competent with that can be done on the job supervised by a suitable clinician but that will still be something that a patient needed!

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Sload
World Chat Champion

Joined: 28 Aug 2011
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Posted: 18:24 - 20 May 2016 Post subject:

That was not directed at you but cheers for the clarification ____________________ Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

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Rogerborg
nimbA

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma : Excellent Karma (Level 3)

Posted: 18:30 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Junior doc wrote:

Work based training does not mean junior doctors don't earn their keep on the job.

Your keep, yes. Paying off what was expected to be a 30 year investment in your career, not so much.
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Sload
World Chat Champion

Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Karma : Excellent Karma (Level 2)

Posted: 18:47 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Rogerborg wrote:

Paying off what was expected to be a 30 year investment in your career, not so much.

I'm labouring the point a bit as a quick search has thrown up a breakdown of figures at past half a mill per Dr and I want to quantify how they base the figures.
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20much%20it%20costs%20to%20train%20a%20doctor

There is a distinct difference between a Junior Doctor actually being a paid Doctor but having on the job training to improve skillsets to some shmuck sat in classes all day or stood behind someone in a OP theatre just watching and never contributing.

Basically where is all that money going?

Older article https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11883575/Young-doctors-must-repay-debt-to-taxpayers-before-moving-abroad.html

I remember at the start of my indentured apprenticeship being told it would cost £160k+ to train us each and after finishing I would call bollocks on that but that is only my experience and it wont necessarily translate.

This is a quote from the comments in the telegraph article, obviously bitter and biased but again, where is this money going then if remotely accurate.

For those who have never had the experience of being a doctor. Here is what the government essentially wants from doctors......

-I will create a job with long working hours -
-You are expected to not have many weekends to see family and friends -
-You are expected to move region/home every 3-6 months
-You are expected to endure sleep deprivation on a regular basis
-You will have no protected breaks even for food.

-You are expected fill any gaps in rota if it cannot be filled, and sometime with short notice
-You are expected to attend training course in the little spare time you have and have to pay for those training our of your own salary
-You are expected to regularly take exams for the first 10 years. Every exam cost around 500 -1200 pounds and you are expected to pay for it yourself
-We are cutting jobs and you will not be promoted any time soon
-We don't have much time to train you, just learn as you go along
-Don't expect to have a normal relationship with your spouse or children, because you have to be on call for our all new 24/7 NHS

-you will get paid about the same amount as a person who ever endure the long working hours and training you had. You will take home 30% of the salary compared to a doctor in Australia

-Just to warn you, many of your patients are rude and horrible but you will just have to take the abuse

the government have made a toxic job and asking why people are leaving???
Make doctors working condition better and I am sure they will stay! Because doctors are willing to make a lot of sacrifice for their fellow human beings but they really are only human after all
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Monkeywrenche...
Nearly there...

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Karma : Excellent Karma (Level 2)

Posted: 20:29 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

mpd72 wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

I don't know, maybe you should ask the next Indian doctor you see that question and see how it goes down with them

Like the last one I met, who couldn't even guess the correct broken shoulder from the X-Ray, so was prodding the other? 5 hours of my life I won't get back.

And yet you're still so against anything that might retain our JD's and foster an environment where their training can be of a better standard and they can work more effectively rather than "harder", when this will be the alternative?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
World Chat Champion

Joined: 06 Oct 2015
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Posted: 20:31 - 20 May 2016 Post subject:

He just doesn't want doctors. They should put DNR on his record. ____________________ Mpd72: I can categorically say i’m Brighter than that, no matter how I come across on here. HAHAHA HAHAHA Blew Chilly MyCrowSystems

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Junior doc
Borekit Bruiser

Joined: 17 Feb 2016
Karma : Good Karma (Level 4)

Posted: 20:49 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

Sload wrote:

Rogerborg wrote:

Paying off what was expected to be a 30 year investment in your career, not so much.

I would also love to see a breakdown of the cost of training a doctor as you see these figures thrown around quite a lot at the moment.

I did look into the cost of putting someone through medical school to see if I could clarify what proportion of this is actually funded by the taxpayer. According to the BMA document below this is around £270k and you do sometimes see this figure used as the true cost of training a medical student. However it should be noted that somewhere around 90k of this is funded by the student themselves through loans to cover tuition fees and living expenses. With the funding for the clinical placement this is likely the SIFT component that the hospital receives for teaching students. Importantly this SIFT payment is not used by hospitals solely for teaching but is also used for the wider development of the hospital for example buying an MRI scanner.

Once you become a doctor and start a training programme the money that makes up your salary comes from two sources, firstly the hospital employing you pays a proportion and then the local foundation school that runs that doctors training pays a proportion. This means that a part of the salary, about half, paid to the junior doctor will appear as a training cost which probably explains why you end up with figures of around half a million.

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Junior doc
Borekit Bruiser

Joined: 17 Feb 2016
Karma : Good Karma (Level 4)

Posted: 20:50 - 20 May 2016

Post subject:

mpd72 wrote:

Junior doc wrote:

I don't know, maybe you should ask the next Indian doctor you see that question and see how it goes down with them

Like the last one I met, who couldn't even guess the correct broken shoulder from the X-Ray, so was prodding the other? 5 hours of my life I won't get back.

You're lucky I'm sure if he had known you better he would have been much more likely to prod the broken shoulder.

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Sload
World Chat Champion

Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Karma : Excellent Karma (Level 2)

Posted: 20:52 - 20 May 2016 Post subject:

I did actually lol, disclaimer I do not advocate torture. ____________________ Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

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