|
|
| Author |
Message |
| Jewlio Rides Again LLB |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Jewlio Rides Again LLB
World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
  |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
| pepperami |
This post is not being displayed .
|
pepperami
Super Spammer
Joined: 17 Jan 2010
Karma :  
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| TaffyTDM |
This post is not being displayed .
|
TaffyTDM
Spanner Monkey
Joined: 15 Jul 2015
Karma : 
|
 Posted: 03:06 - 05 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
 |
|
[quote="Rogerborg"] | The Artist wrote: | The arrest is just a procedural thing with an incident of this severity. They will secure the crime scene and interview the guy properly. |
This is often claimed by the police, but it's simply not true.
They could have secured the scene by asking him to come with them. If he refused, OK, arrest. I highly doubt that he did though.
They can interview him under caution. If he gets up to leave, arrest.
They get no extra powers to grill him from making an arrest. In fact, it starts the clock ticking on the time limit on detention.
Arrest isn't necessary unless it's necessary. One of the conditions of making an arrest is saying why it's necessary. "Cuz it's handy for us" isn't one of them.
Maybe not a big deal for our hero, but the kicker is that it shows up on background checks, visa and Septic entry applications, indefinitely.
"Arrested for murder" stays with you forever. If I knew that I was wanted for something, I'd be likely to turn up with a brief in tow whose opening line would be "My client will co-operate fully[*], there is no need to make an arrest, and we'll be claiming mad compo if you do so."
[*] To the extent of sitting there saying nothing.[/quot 
Case law on this one borg.
If a suspect is invited to assist/assist with enquiries, and the officer has the intention to arrest them at any point they choose to exercise their liberty and leave, then they have in effect already been arrested, and should be told of that from the outset.
Arresting someone does give plod extra powers, see s18, 32 pace, and read up on intimate samples, along with ma y other trigger powers certainly of use when investigating something for the coroner.
As shitty as it sounds, someone has died. There have been enough cases of gangland murder victims lured in and staged. It would be remiss of plod to not do things thoroughly.
If only guilty people were arrested, there would be no need for judge and jury.
Key to me is what happens to him at the end
Serious allegations found to be without merit can be wiped off the record now, because yumanrights, no biggie |
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 08:13 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
| The Artist wrote: | If that is the case then they wouldn't have arrested him for murder unless they thought he had committed the crime so maybe there is something else going on. |
If they were using their powers of arrest correctly. They may well be, but I doubt it.
| TaffyTDM wrote: | If a suspect is invited to assist/assist with enquiries, and the officer has the intention to arrest them at any point they choose to exercise their liberty and leave, then they have in effect already been arrested, and should be told of that from the outset. |
A prime example of "because convenient" reasoning. By that argument, you might as well go ahead and arrest everyone who turns up to interview voluntarily, which means nobody should ever turn up interview voluntarily.
| TaffyTDM wrote: | Arresting someone does give plod extra powers, see s18, 32 pace |
Day job, chum, and please read what I actually wrote, not what you think that I wrote. Poor obs.
There is never any need to arrest a subject who is fully co-operating. It's convenient: it means you don't have to ask them for permission.
And why would that sort of time wasting courtesy and consideration matter? It's only some old geezer who's just fought for his life against a couple of home invaders. Just bang him up then see if we can do him for anything.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| kawakid |
This post is not being displayed .
|
kawakid
World Chat Champion
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 12:00 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
| kawakid wrote: | Unlike this case. Where the home owner was questioned for 12 hours, but not charged. Not being charged is the key thing. |
Er, exactly like, so far. He was arrested, but not charged. I don't expect this chap to be charged either, but the attitude that arrest is no big deal is exactly why I think it is a big deal.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| The Artist |
This post is not being displayed .
|
The Artist
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 12:08 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
| The Artist wrote: | I find it hard to blame the police for arresting him. |
Try harder. 
| The Artist wrote: | It is not ideal in this case but overall is the best thing to do. |
I'm sure you'd be just as understanding if you were standing there shaking and covered in your attacker's blood, having just been forced to fight for your life inside your own home, and the 5-0 arrested you just in case you instigated it. I mean, overall, it's the best thing to do.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| The Artist |
This post is not being displayed .
|
The Artist
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Karma :
|
| Posted: 12:44 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Fizzoid |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Fizzoid
World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| The Artist |
This post is not being displayed .
|
The Artist
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
Posted: 13:10 - 05 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
|
|
| The Artist wrote: | they should just let them go until they have completed an investigation? |
They have let him go.
The question is, did they have to arrest him in order to begin that investigation?
In what way do you imagine that he was obstructing it? He might have been refusing to co-operate, but I strongly suspect that he wasn't even given the option to do so.
If arrest isn't necessary[*], or if you have no reasonable grounds for suspecting someone of the offence for which you arrest them (pre-meditated murder in this case), it's unlawful.
I think it's important that the people responsible for enforcing the law should know and follow it. Don't you?
[*] (a)to enable the name of the person in question to be ascertained (in the case where the constable does not know, and cannot readily ascertain, the person's name, or has reasonable grounds for doubting whether a name given by the person as his name is his real name);
(b)correspondingly as regards the person's address;
(c)to prevent the person in question—
(i)causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(ii)suffering physical injury;
(iii)causing loss of or damage to property;
(iv)committing an offence against public decency (subject to subsection (6)); or
(v)causing an unlawful obstruction of the highway;
(d)to protect a child or other vulnerable person from the person in question;
(e)to allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of the conduct of the person in question;
(f)to prevent any prosecution for the offence from being hindered by the disappearance of the person in question.
The catch-all is (e), but if the police can argue that they have to arrest in order to prevent the possibility of interference of delay, then the provision has no meaning.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| weasley |
This post is not being displayed .
|
weasley
World Chat Champion
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
Posted: 13:18 - 05 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
|
|
Exactly. What could he have possibly said that would give a reasonable belief that he pre-meditated and then carried out a deliberate killing, with intent?
It's not Scotchland, intent matters for murder, rather than just "wicked recklessness".
Eh, maybe he said "I planned to kill him, I killed him, I'm glad I killed him."
In which case, he gets two medals.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Nexus Icon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Nexus Icon
World Chat Champion
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Fizzoid |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Fizzoid
World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Karma :
|
| Posted: 13:31 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
| Rogerborg wrote: | Exactly. What could he have possibly said that would give a reasonable belief that he pre-meditated and then carried out a deliberate killing, with intent?
It's not Scotchland, intent matters for murder, rather than just "wicked recklessness".
Eh, maybe he said "I planned to kill him, I killed him, I'm glad I killed him."
In which case, he gets two medals. |
Suppose he could have bound and gagged him first, before administering the fatal blow, but who knows. It will be interesting to see on what grounds they suspected murder.
____________________
Rogerborg wrote: It'd certainly make it easier to ego-find my own posts on pages, given the number of fags (gay like traps) who insist on putting my name in their .sig |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| stinkwheel |
This post is not being displayed .
|
stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| TaffyTDM |
This post is not being displayed .
|
TaffyTDM
Spanner Monkey
Joined: 15 Jul 2015
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
Posted: 19:59 - 05 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
|
|
| TaffyTDM wrote: | TLDR - Borg - special warnings and inferences, s36 and s37. Only apply after arrest. |
Sure, if you're intending to detain in custody (forcibly deprive someone of their freedom) and then charge. All of which is conditional on having a reasonable belief of their guilt in the first place. Some pikey being deaded doesn't imply that they were muddered.
I should mention that I didn't write the book on case + custody, but I did read it quite carefully, and help to ensure that the coppers in a major metropolitan force don't spack it up. I fully understand why arrest makes things easier for coppers, but that doesn't make it right (or lawful) to use it just in case.
| TaffyTDM wrote: | Granted you have the fantastical cooperating suspect, but shouldn't any tec on a fatal enquiry have it in the back of his mind that consent can and will be withdrawn at any time, usually when the case is closing in, then whut Do? |
Then arrest. Wow, all that voluntary co-operation, and now the custody clock starts ticking. Why wouldn't you?
I know this bawww isn't going to change anything, but it properly winds me up when arrest is used preemptively in totes srs cases, without a genuine (let alone reasonable) belief of guilt by the arresting officer.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Jewlio Rides Again LLB |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Jewlio Rides Again LLB
World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Karma :
|
| Posted: 20:25 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
Just reinforces my widely expressed opinions, tbh.
And the fact that despite my run ins with the police, they had absolutely no chance of arresting me, sort of puts the kibosh on any of the lies our resident ECDLer tries to peddle. 
____________________
Mpd72: I can categorically say i’m Brighter than that, no matter how I come across on here.
HAHAHA HAHAHA Blew Chilly MyCrowSystems |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| TaffyTDM |
This post is not being displayed .
|
TaffyTDM
Spanner Monkey
Joined: 15 Jul 2015
Karma :
|
| Posted: 21:01 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
| Rogerborg wrote: | | TaffyTDM wrote: | TLDR - Borg - special warnings and inferences, s36 and s37. Only apply after arrest. |
Sure, if you're intending to detain in custody (forcibly deprive someone of their freedom) and then charge. All of which is conditional on having a reasonable belief of their guilt in the first place. Some pikey being deaded doesn't imply that they were muddered.
I should mention that I didn't write the book on case + custody, but I did read it quite carefully, and help to ensure that the coppers in a major metropolitan force don't spack it up. I fully understand why arrest makes things easier for coppers, but that doesn't make it right (or lawful) to use it just in case.
| TaffyTDM wrote: | Granted you have the fantastical cooperating suspect, but shouldn't any tec on a fatal enquiry have it in the back of his mind that consent can and will be withdrawn at any time, usually when the case is closing in, then whut Do? |
Then arrest. Wow, all that voluntary co-operation, and now the custody clock starts ticking. Why wouldn't you?
I know this bawww isn't going to change anything, but it properly winds me up when arrest is used preemptively in totes srs cases, without a genuine (let alone reasonable) belief of guilt by the arresting officer. |
I agree there. Manslaughter would be more reasonable to suspect and you are right, there are many times when arrest is the lazy way. However, there was that strong argument on the other side (and iirc, it came from the likes of Mansfield qc rather than the feds) that if the only thing stopping you from being lifted is your willingness not to walk away, you already have been arrested and should be told this from the off, have your 24hours and solicitaaaah and all those other protections. Granted this is pre -IDCOPLAN so it hasn't been tested, but from a fairness and openness point of view its still relevant.
There are many lazy nicks and where things could have been dealt with with a little more decorum, but given the complexities and impact a homicide enquiry will involve, I would tend to be sympathetic to a prompt and effective argument, as there's much more too it than an interview.
Outweighs the risk of, well, getting away with murder.
And I have every sympathy for the innocent man lifted, it's shit. But I repeat, people are innocent until proven guilty. Arrest is not a punishment nor was it meant to be. Bad juju to anyone that believes that. And that's why charge standards are a lot higher, once the dust is settled, it's not unusual for the man initially believed to be the suspect to turn to victim, and vis versa |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 21:15 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
| TaffyTDM wrote: | if the only thing stopping you from being lifted is your willingness not to walk away, you already have been arrested and should be told this from the off, have your 24hours |
That actually is a fair point. 
It also makes the requirement to caution completely unambiguous. In this case, I very much hope that the arresting officer added "... and I strongly advise you to say nothing until you've had legal advice."
On that, brief must be offered for voluntary interviews too, as I'm sure you're very well aware.
| TaffyTDM wrote: | And I have every sympathy for the innocent man lifted |
Then I have infinity plus one sympathies.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Jewlio Rides Again LLB |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Jewlio Rides Again LLB
World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Karma :
|
| Posted: 22:06 - 05 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
|
|
Aarons needs to hurry up and design CrocTearsPal.
____________________
Mpd72: I can categorically say i’m Brighter than that, no matter how I come across on here.
HAHAHA HAHAHA Blew Chilly MyCrowSystems |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Nobby the Bastard |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar
Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ste |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ste
Not Work Safe
Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Karma :
|
Posted: 23:36 - 05 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 50 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
 |
|
|
Help & FAQs
Search BCF
Members
Groups
Events Calendar
rating
rating