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| Pie-Roe |
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Pie-Roe
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 Posted: 11:32 - 16 Apr 2010  Post subject: DVLA taking me t'court, docs inside -RESULT |
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I received this letter this morning. There are a few problems I have with it.
https://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8483/bcflegalone.jpg
Sorry, had to post on diff computer, and write up on this one.
Basically, My name is actually PEARCE not PEARLE, I can't remember what it said on the V5. I don't know how this has come about, because I sent off the V5, I don't think I got a letter back, which is my fault for not chasing, but I got a letter from them about 2 months ago saying that I would be liable and needed to pay a fine. I rang and lettered saying that I no longer owned this vehicle and no longer had the details of who I sold it to.
Could I not use the same principle of Sickpup's case, where it's up to THEM to prove I DIDN'T send them the V5, and a letter stating I sold it and when? I'm not fussy about going to court, I've never been it'll be fun, and I've got quite a while to prepare, but how do I go about getting a solicitor and that. I've not got much money.
In theory I could end up with 1060+ in fines if I fight it and lose.
The other thing, theres a list of keepers on the back, Jenks was keeper 5, and I was keeper 6. I only owned the bike for 3 weeks, yet on the keeper history it says I had it for just over 3 months, and it has a little star next to my name. I don't understand where the actual offense comes from, because surely if they were going to take people to court for not telling where it's gone, the previous owner before anyone sends off a v62 would get it?
Pyro
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TQ
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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supZ
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| Pie-Roe |
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Pie-Roe
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| Posted: 12:02 - 16 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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| supZ wrote: | | TQ wrote: | Did you notify them of the change of keeper? |
l2read?
| pyroforlife wrote: | I don't know how this has come about, because I sent off the V5
...
I rang and lettered saying that I no longer owned this vehicle |
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Actually, thats my bad, I just posted picture from another computer and wrote the rest of it after TQ replied.
Keith, that's what I'm worried about. If it was as simple as accepting the truth, I wouldn't need a solicitor, I'd just have to stand up and put it to them that I tried to give them the information, assuming to a reasonable level that they would receive it. Whether they choose to beleive that or just think I'm being a cocky little twerp is the coin toss.
Pyro
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supZ
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| Posted: 13:42 - 16 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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ahh right, sorry then TQ 
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TQ
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| Kris |
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Kris
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| Posted: 14:05 - 16 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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Put it in the bin.
That letter is not addressed to you, remember?
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| SlimRick |
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SlimRick
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Posted: 14:28 - 16 Apr 2010  Post subject: |
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Why have you blanked out the address at the top of the letter, but not in the body of it? I now have your full name and address, I shall be round to rape you in your sleep this evening  |
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T0MMY
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Groove
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Pie-Roe
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| Posted: 16:43 - 16 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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| Kris wrote: | Put it in the bin.
That letter is not addressed to you, remember?
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This is true, however I'm not overly convinced a warrent for my arrest might be typoed also back to my actual name!
Yeah, I didn't realise my address was still in it, meh, I don't really care too much tbh, I'm moving in 2 weeks so there will be no bikes there.
Pyro
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Pie-Roe
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| Posted: 14:29 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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Right, this is getting closer now, and I need to work out what to do. I just rang the court and queried the name spelling, the DVLA sent them this information, and I've found out the vehicle was in the name of Samuel Pearle, not Pearce. I asked the woman on the phone if I just didn't turn up because it's named wrong what would happen and she'd say I'd get the max fine and then get 'failure to appear before court' criminal offence. Hmm.
Do I
A) turn up and argue that I sent the letter and that as first class post is deemed to be sent, I filled my responsibility? Not guilty (if I lose, up to 1300 quid in fine (which I can't really afford)
B) Plead guilty but state the above and try and get a lesser fine by post mitigating circumstances.
C)Not bother turning up because it's not addressed to me.
I'm making the decision tomorrow, as it is a week today.
Pyro
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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Posted: 14:57 - 28 Apr 2010  Post subject: |
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| pyroforlife wrote: | Right, this is getting closer now, and I need to work out what to do. I just rang the court and queried the name spelling, the DVLA sent them this information, and I've found out the vehicle was in the name of Samuel Pearle, not Pearce. I asked the woman on the phone if I just didn't turn up because it's named wrong what would happen and she'd say I'd get the max fine and then get 'failure to appear before court' criminal offence. Hmm.
Do I
A) turn up and argue that I sent the letter and that as first class post is deemed to be sent, I filled my responsibility? Not guilty (if I lose, up to 1300 quid in fine (which I can't really afford)
B) Plead guilty but state the above and try and get a lesser fine by post mitigating circumstances.
C)Not bother turning up because it's not addressed to me.
I'm making the decision tomorrow, as it is a week today.
Pyro |
The law states that if you declare you posted it it is deemed to have been received. Not guilty, feck them off and if your solicitor advises otherwise sack him. Sickpup won his case because that's the law, and NOT open to interpretation based upon the predelictions of particular magistrates.
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DrDonnyBrago
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| Pie-Roe |
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Pie-Roe
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| Posted: 15:23 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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Uh, yeah I can't afford a solicitor and I don't qualify for legal aid apparently.
I've got tomorow off, I shall go t'library + research the specific laws regarding the offense I have apparently committed, and the law regarding 'deemed served' post.
Can someone briefly outline what happens when you go to court? Obviously I turn up half an hour early in a suit, get called in, what happens after that? Do they read out the charges and ask for my plea and then we go from there?
Pyro
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Previous: GSF600, FZR600 x2, ZXR750, XT600 Tenere, CB125, CZ125, ETZ 250, ER5, CCM R30, DRZ400, RF600x4, RF900x2, GS500, VTR1000F, 640 SMC, CB250 NIGHTHAWK, GT550x3, GPX750 TE610, CB500, X11x2, SV650, ZING 125, TL1000R,CB250 Superdream, CBR1100XX
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Pie-Roe
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| Posted: 15:27 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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| Hetzer wrote: | | pyroforlife wrote: | Right, this is getting closer now, and I need to work out what to do. I just rang the court and queried the name spelling, the DVLA sent them this information, and I've found out the vehicle was in the name of Samuel Pearle, not Pearce. I asked the woman on the phone if I just didn't turn up because it's named wrong what would happen and she'd say I'd get the max fine and then get 'failure to appear before court' criminal offence. Hmm.
Do I
A) turn up and argue that I sent the letter and that as first class post is deemed to be sent, I filled my responsibility? Not guilty (if I lose, up to 1300 quid in fine (which I can't really afford)
B) Plead guilty but state the above and try and get a lesser fine by post mitigating circumstances.
C)Not bother turning up because it's not addressed to me.
I'm making the decision tomorrow, as it is a week today.
Pyro |
The law states that if you declare you posted it it is deemed to have been received. Not guilty, feck them off and if your solicitor advises otherwise sack him. Sickpup won his case because that's the law, and NOT open to interpretation based upon the predelictions of particular magistrates. |
Where would I find such citation, so I can refer to paragraph subsection etc. I'm aware theres a thing called google, but I'm not sure what would be accepted.
Pyro
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Pie-Roe
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| Posted: 16:04 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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This is my first draft of my statement:
| Quote: | (whatever you say to court opening?), Under
Section 7 Interpretations act 1978 (IA78) which is as follows:
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
I believe myself to be innocent of the charge that I ‘failed to forthwith deliver notification to the secretary of state, on the registration document or in writing as required by Regulation 22(2)(b) of the Road Vehicles (registration and Licensiing) Regulations 2002 and section 59(1) of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.
I sent off the V5c Registration Document for vehicle DY02FSG to the DVLA the day I sold the vehicle First Class post, and thought nothing more of it, having no legal duty to do so, as under the aforementioned act, it is deemed served once delivered. I have not profited or benefited from the DVLA allegedly not being informed, so it defies all reason that I would withhold information from them. I have owned 17 vehicles, and in that time, have never failed to notify of a change of owner, and have never been late with taxing/SORNing vehicles. The DVLA have failed to spell my name correctly.
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Any comments and a massive thanks to mister james
Pyro
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| stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel
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| Posted: 16:09 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.
| Quote: | Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post. |
I think an important phrase here is "Unless the contrary intention appears." which put the onus on them to show it was not posted, rather than on you to show that it was.
If you posted it, tell them you posted it and that your legal obligations were deemed to have been fulfilled when you put the letter in the post.
The regulation you have allegedly committed an offence under is the Road Vehicles (registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002. Regulation 22.
This reads | Quote: |
The registered keeper of the vehicle -
(a) if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and
(b) shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following -
(i) the name and address of the new keeper;
(ii) the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;
(iii) a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and
(iv) a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct. |
The phrase "Shall forthwith deliver" seems to come under the auspices of the Interpretation Acts: "Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used)".
Especially given that the V5 document itself gives detailed instructions as to which address and postcode to send it to.
EDIT: Doh, Mr James is obviously a quicker hand on opsi than I am.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Pie-Roe
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| Posted: 16:19 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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| stinkwheel wrote: | Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.
| Quote: | Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post. |
I think an important phrase here is "Unless the contrary intention appears." which put the onus on them to show it was not posted, rather than on you to show that it was.
If you posted it, tell them you posted it and that your legal obligations were deemed to have been fulfilled when you put the letter in the post.
The regulation you have allegedly committed an offence under is the Road Vehicles (registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002. Regulation 22.
This reads | Quote: |
The registered keeper of the vehicle -
(a) if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and
(b) shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following -
(i) the name and address of the new keeper;
(ii) the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;
(iii) a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and
(iv) a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct. |
The phrase "Shall forthwith deliver" seems to come under the auspices of the Interpretation Acts: "Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used)".
Especially given that the V5 document itself gives detailed instructions as to which address and postcode to send it to.
EDIT: Doh, Mr James is obviously a quicker hand on opsi than I am. |
Uh, yeah. Pretty much just says fill in the V5 right. It mentions nothing about waiting for a confirmation letter, which would be an exception to the act mentioned. SO I think my defense is legally right.
Can you go watch court? Loads of my friends wanna come watch.
Pyro
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| Spit-Fire |
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Spit-Fire
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| Posted: 16:27 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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im in a similar boat. im still waiting on the hearing though, as the silly court usher told them i wasn't in the building and they fined me, then after finding out i was sat right out side the court door they rearrange a new hearing.
the magistrate gave me the number on dvla prosecutions and the name of the gent who was there to try his best to get some money out my pockets, and told me to ring the dvla and try to sort it out and hopefully i wouldn't have to see him again.
so i rang them....
man on the phone said,
"at the bottom of the v5 it states if you do not receive a letter from us saying you are no longer the register keep you should ring this number"
i reply "so... the number i should ring to question if you have received it... is written on the same document i send to you that id be calling enquiring about  .
his reply "err yes, so we will see you in court".
still waiting for the court date now (gotta love the dvla  )
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Adamantis
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| Posted: 17:16 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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Few bits of court ettiquette etc:
Yes your mates can go and watch - they'll sit in the public gallery (but ffs get them to be quiet - Magistrates are really arsey about that!)
Address the bench as "Your Worships", and direct you words to the chair (one in the middle)
Whatever time it says to show up isn't necessarily the time you'll be seen. 0930 is given for all morning hearings, and probably 1330 for pm (court starts at 10am and 2pm)
You'll likely be in the dock, but as a non-custodial bod there won't be a dock officer to tell you when to sit/stand, so pay attention to the clerk (sitting in front of the bench. They'll be the one who'll ask your name/address etc. They're also the only one with legal training!)
Speak up, don't interrupt, and be prepared for them to faff about. I hate magistrates, which is why I work in a Crown 
Laura |
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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| Posted: 19:56 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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| pyroforlife wrote: | (whatever you say to court opening?), Under
Section 7 Interpretations act 1978 (IA78) which is as follows:
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
I believe myself to be innocent of the charge that I ‘failed to forthwith deliver notification to the secretary of state, on the registration document or in writing as required by Regulation 22(2)(b) of the Road Vehicles (registration and Licensiing) Regulations 2002 and section 59(1) of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.
I sent off the V5c Registration Document for vehicle DY02FSG to the DVLA the day I sold the vehicle First Class post, and thought nothing more of it, having no legal duty to do so, as under the aforementioned act, it is deemed served once delivered. I have not profited or benefited from the DVLA allegedly not being informed, so it defies all reason that I would withhold information from them. I have owned 17 vehicles, and in that time, have never failed to notify of a change of owner, and have never been late with taxing/SORNing vehicles. The DVLA have failed to spell my name correctly. |
Just to highlight that I think the act deems it served once sent (which you have control of) rather than when delivered (which you have no control over).
All the best
Keith
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Pie-Roe
World Chat Champion
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| Posted: 20:53 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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| sPiTfYa wrote: | im in a similar boat. im still waiting on the hearing though, as the silly court usher told them i wasn't in the building and they fined me, then after finding out i was sat right out side the court door they rearrange a new hearing.
the magistrate gave me the number on dvla prosecutions and the name of the gent who was there to try his best to get some money out my pockets, and told me to ring the dvla and try to sort it out and hopefully i wouldn't have to see him again.
so i rang them....
man on the phone said,
"at the bottom of the v5 it states if you do not receive a letter from us saying you are no longer the register keep you should ring this number"
i reply "so... the number i should ring to question if you have received it... is written on the same document i send to you that id be calling enquiring about .
his reply "err yes, so we will see you in court".
still waiting for the court date now (gotta love the dvla ) |
Hopefully in a weeks time you'll be confident in the fact you can copy my speech, adding a case reference and be guarenteed not guilty.
Pyro
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Previous: GSF600, FZR600 x2, ZXR750, XT600 Tenere, CB125, CZ125, ETZ 250, ER5, CCM R30, DRZ400, RF600x4, RF900x2, GS500, VTR1000F, 640 SMC, CB250 NIGHTHAWK, GT550x3, GPX750 TE610, CB500, X11x2, SV650, ZING 125, TL1000R,CB250 Superdream, CBR1100XX |
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| Kris |
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Kris
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| Posted: 20:56 - 28 Apr 2010 Post subject: |
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Looks like your case is a strong one. Must be nice going to court in the right and not being bang to rights...
Give 'em what for eh. 
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