Motorists and the Law!

[T.C]

How do I start this for a decent discussion?

Well, lets start at the beginning, most of you know my background and many of you know that I still work in the legal profession, so putting my cards on the table, although I listen to many of the issues and whinges that people have regarding being caught for speeding and other so called minor traffic offences, the bottom line is that I really have very little sympathy (unless it is a justified miscarriage of justice) as we all know the rules when we take to the road.

Now some of us work on the basis that if we get caught speeding or whatever, we have no one to blame but ourselves, and in that respect we will take it on the chin and get on with life, whilst others will do whatever it takes to wriggle out of a conviction and claim that the rules are unfair, sneaky, underhand, in fact anything to maximise the sympathy vote and drum up support and anti legislation feelings.

But, if one of these law breakers caught another stealing their wallet, bike or similar, they would be demanding that the thief have their hands cut off, they are hung drawn and quartered and that they all have thief tattood across there forehead.

Now what gets me, is this, are these burglars/thieves really any worse than those riders who choose to stunt ride on a public road, or choose to ride at excessive speeds, or don't have any insurance (you get my drift I hope) in short they have just as much of a blatant disregard for the laws of the country as their counterparts who choose to steal rather than speed!

It is very rare that someone who has stolen property has caused someone's death (OK the odd heart attack through shock), whereas bad riding and excessive speed is proven to cause death on a daily basis.

So, to kick the debate off, why do motorists set double standards and see themselves as being above the law, but those who commit non traffic offences are the scum of the earth?
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[Sadie]

[Grubby]

First off your argument of Burglars V people stunting is flawed.
Stunting is one person breaking a minor law & probably hurting no one, whereas a burglar knows that what he is doing is going to cause distress, heartache & in some cases people have been known to have to move house because their sanctity has been violated.
So in response to your question, "are these burglars/thieves really any worse than those riders who choose to stunt ride on a public road, or choose to ride at excessive speeds, or don't have any insurance "
the answer is yes they are....they are the scum of the earth only slightly higher than politicians & law companies who prey on people who think that they can win a damages case & get themselves a fortune from the litigation mentality that these companies portray.
Hope this answer's your question.

[dainesefreak]

It's probably a bit of a simplistic answer for me.

If someone commits a crime against me, theft, burglary, etc, then it's a personal offence.

Whereas for the most part a traffic offence is less likely to be as personal. If someone gets caught for speeding/stunting it doesn't affect me unless they kill or injure a family member, which on the whole is a far less common occurrence than being robbed.

I suppose I'm a stick my head in the sand and only deal with what affects me personally sort of a person.

[NickD]

I accept that the law is the law, and take whatever punishment comes my way, However, I would take issue with your comment that excessive speed is proven to cause death on a daily basis, and would suggest that a more accurate statement would be that INAPPROPRIATE speed is proven to cause death on a daily basis.
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[Frost]

I think so long as its not dangerous to innocent people i feel that both i and others are within our rights to try to get away with it. get caught and its your own damn fault!

[Lee_367]

I think that motorists are not 'above the law' and really are still committing a crime in the same sense of the word as stealing when speeding. but thats as far as i'll go on that.

what i do realise is that motorists are penalised by the police / government, which is why we kick off such a fuss when we get caught in the wrong.

Just look at the measures designed to affect motorists, speed cameras, high petrol prices, tax,etc. and compare this to how often you see a police officer patrolling round the streets looking for burglars.
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[T.C]

[MarJay]

There is a difference IMO between a blatant disregard for the law and speeding or stunts.

If I stole a bike or burgled a house, then that would be a blatant disregard for the law. If I did 130mph everywhere and wheelied and stoppied way from and up to every traffic light, then I would be blatantly disregarding the law.

I do not do this, despite the fact that my bike is capable. If I speed, I do so when the conditions allow me to do so safely. If I stunt, then I do so on private land away from people and the only person I will hurt is myself. If I choose to stunt on a quiet backroad where there are no people, then I believe that this is being sensible.

However, Stealing a bike or car or burgling a house does hurt people. It causes mental anguish beyond the loss of property. It causes paranoia, fear and insecurity. I knew a man who was happy and well adjusted, until his house was burgled.

Not long after he disappeared, and he was later found on dartmoor having committed suicide.

Burglary, theft and vandalism is not a victimless crime. Stunting away from people and being sensible is IMO.
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[MarJay]

Also,

As a small aside... I was under the impression that speeding was a traffic offense NOT a criminal one, and burglary and theft of a motor vehicle is most definitely a criminal one!
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Bendy]

A very interesting question.

Theft has been around since the dawn of humankind and is a basic moral 'wrong'. Most of us are brought up to know that it is wrong and it's something we'd never intentionally do.

Traffic law hasn't been around very long and includes lots of laws that people don't agree with. We get in our vehicles and feel like we have a right to do what we please, a feeling perhaps enhanced by the media that influences us as we grow up.

Like it or not, people apply a value to certain laws, generally based on the effect that breaking them would have on others (usually themselves, as humans are inherently selfish). People don't see any direct harm in speeding while they do see a direct harm in theft. Therefore theft is a bigger deal than speeding.

I go down the deserted indistrial estate and pop a wheelie. Illegal - yes. Effect on others - none. I go out and steal someone's bike. Illegal - yes. Effect on others - great. That's why I consider crime a to be a whole lot less important than crime b - it's the effect it has on other people. Aren't most laws based on that? Isn't that why murder carries a high penalty while watching TV without a licence carries a low one?

As far as breaking traffic laws goes, I certainly do it (I won't deny I speed and sometimes go twat around in empty industrial estates) and if I were to analyse I think the main reason would be that I see no logic in some of the laws. The speed limit on the UK motorway network dates back to a fuel crisis and is based on old cars that handled like crap and didn't stop very well. Why is that still being applied? I don't speed in 30s for example because I see the logic in why they are there. Damn right I'll speed down the empty M4 at 2am when there's not another vehicle in sight because I see it as a pointless law (and one that chances are I'll get away with breaking). Likewise the stunting thing - ok, it would be hard to create a law that allowed it to a certain level and not after that point, but what harm am I doing by popping a wheelie down an empty road?

So, in essence, I think everyone has their own take on what laws they feel it's 'alright' to break - after all, you get serial killers who don't think they're doing anything wrong. I'm not saying it's right but I think that's possibly the logic behind it.

[mazza]

A good post TC. And a case well put.

There are some loose ends, but I agree. Especially the contrast between crime against bikers, to crimes by bikers.
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[Kris]

In the last few years I've noticed a growing trend of distrust (sp?) and disrespect towards plod. In many ways more normally 'law abiding' people are getting tugged and fined, basically in trouble with the police for motoring offences. This is only happening because more emphasis is being placed on motoring offences than ever before. Can you tell me the casualty figures reflect this apparent need for SPECS, gatsos etc?

Speeding isn't thought of as a big a deal as burglary because it isn't. If someone is driving fast enough to deserve a speeding ticket then you could argue dangerous driving charges could apply instead. 34 in a 30 does not a criminal make, although try telling the beak that

This country is going mad I tell you.

[edit] Oh and if speeding is such a crime then why do they speed on some plod approved advanced training?
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[G]

For a start, the majority of people do not link surpassing the speed limits to bad driving. I believe quite a few studies have shown that, well, people driving badly are bad drivers, while those exceeding the speed limits by small margins are bad drivers only if they are actually driving badly.
I believe some reports have shown that our motorways are likely to be safer with higher speed limits.
Unfortunately I don’t have the time or enthusiasm at the moment to dig up any of these reports etc, while I’m sure, as is your job, you will have plenty of evidence to the contrary.

A lot of people have their own moral code and work by that. When I did 41 in a 40 limit on Monday I do not myself believe that I am as ‘bad’ as the person that stole Laura’s bike which we were going to collect. Maybe I did endanger life, but did I do more so than someone behind me that was doing 40, but having a heated discussion with their passenger about who’s turn it is to take the rubbish out?


It is generally human nature to try and get away without punishment, I’m sure you must have seen this in your years as a police officer.
The same punishment for the same crime also effects some people completely differently.
My mum acquired 6 points from two Gatsos a while ago; I doubt it significantly effected her.
I suspect the points I may get from having a defective tyre (which was not when we left, whatever the tyre ‘experts’ say) will mean I lose even more money in insurance or may make it impossible to insure some vehicles I would like to.

[TheShaggyDA]

S'easy - "Thou Shalt Not Speede" wasn't in the ten commandments, last time I looked
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[map]

Ok, so I'll start with the get out clause and say all this is IMHO.

Traffic offences like speeding, going over double white line, etc. are seen as a victimless crime (much like dainesefreak said). So there's no-one hurt and no-one to blame but yourself.

Burglary etc. does have victims. Even if you say things are insured then there's the personal loss, violation of your space, etc.

However, where the difference I think is blurred is things like causing death by dangerous driving. You hear stories were the driver appears to get just a ban for a couple of years, maybe a few months in jail. This is not right and people like this should be treated like scum. IMHO causing someone's death while you're driving/riding should be manslaughter. You killed someone, you didn't mean to, but you did!
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[T.C]

[Kickstart]

Hi

Personally it is down to the impact on others. Theft will impact others all the time. There is a victim.

With speeding there is very rarely a victim. Around 3% of accidents have excessive speed over the speed limit as a factor, so for deaths that means it is a factor in around 100 road deaths a year. Basically an irrelevant number considering millions of people exceed the speed limit many times each every day, especially when you consider that it is very likely that most of those 100 victims will be the ones who were speeding and thus had made the choice to take the risk.

Also the laws are meant to represent the views of the population. Most of the popuation speed by varying amounts, and as such the law is not in line with the views of the population. Enforcing such rules will just bring the law further into disrepute (and the police with it).

You could argue that the law is a victim of speeding. My view on this is that the law itself if utterly irrelevant and has less importance than the life of a blade of grass. The law only has importance when it is in line with the views of the population (considered long term views, not knee jerk reactions to a particular event), and it is those views that are important.

At the end of the day the laws need to reflect what is important, rather than what can be cheaply and easily enforced.

All the best

Keith
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[map]

[G]

[Kris]

[map]

[Smoto Bob]

"stunting is not a crime"

Theft is an immoral un-decent and disgraceful planned attack on some one elses hard earned property. Robbers ect are not nice people
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[byke95]

IMHO:

Speeding in not 'above the law' but, as even you must agree T.C speeding penalties have now become unreciprocal to the crime.

If you get caught doing over 100 mph you will (in most cases) be banned, end of story. This has a massive implication on persons life, their job and their relationships.

If you knock over some granny with a bat for her pension money you will probably get away with a caution. I say this having experience of it; my girlfriend worked for the witness service for a year and she never ceased to be amazed with how blatant assaults, thefts and anti-social behaviour got away with very minor penalty, if one at all.

While the phrase "Don't do the crime unless you can do the time" is something we all need to pay attention to, people will never respect a law that does not 'fit the crime'.

[T.C]