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Ahmato_
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Joined: 03 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 26 Jul 2006    Post subject: WTF is this all about? Reply with quote
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5217438.stm

Thats seriously pissed me off.

'Oh, feel free to do as you want Mr. Israeli, I'll just stand here and make sure the Hezbollah dont get up to any mischeif, like return fire'

FFS, Why Are the Flipping Child-Butchering, Women-Slaughtering Cowardly Dogs so above everyone else.

This makes me sick to think that they could even begin to use history to their advantage. Imagine if the Hezbollah could do that, or perhaps even Hammas, they would even have a case for what they do. Oh wait, no they're the terrorist bad guys how foolish of me.
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zaknafien




Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 26 Jul 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
People condemn terrorists so much yet they make no mention of the israeli terrorist groups(Lehi, Irgun) that are still celebrated to this day and have memorials dedicated to them.

One rule for Israel, another for everyone else.
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 08:46 - 27 Jul 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hitler almost succeded the first time round, how about another go?

Fuck em
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headlamp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 09:38 - 27 Jul 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
FFS, Why Are the Flipping Child-Butchering, Women-Slaughtering Cowardly Dogs so above everyone else.


Interesting statement. Is that Hizbollah you are talking about? The Iranian backed organisation that attacked a sovereign nation to deflect attention away from its backer's nuclear threat. The organisation that has built an arsenal of 13,000 rockets, has launched thousands of them, indiscriminately, into heavily populated areas, hides them in mosques, schools and under apartment buildings? Oh yes we mustn't forget the 'thousands' of Lebanese languishing in Israeli prisons - all four of them - a child killing convicted terrorist, a Jewish - Lebanese spy and a further 2 terrorists. Occupied Lebanon? The Shebaa farms area is 100 square miles on the border of Israel, Syria and Lebanon. The UN declared that it is Israeli territory, however it was mentioned yesterday that Israel is willing to cede the land to Syria, who have more rights to it, if it will help make peace in the area.

I'm sorry to say, that this all an excuse....I wish people would wake up and smell the roses!! The current crisis in Lebanon is part of a much wider conflict - think Afghanistan, Iraq, Indonesia, Somalia, Al Quaeda, Chechyna, Sudan, Gaza as well as terrorist activity in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, India, Russia etc. It is all connected - state backed radical Islam pursuing their goal of recreating the 12th century Caliphate, under Sharia law. At least Israel is confronting this tyranny, as it has most to lose, whereas the rest of the world pussy foots around.
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senna_f4
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 27 Jul 2006    Post subject: Re: WTF is this all about? Reply with quote
Ahmato_ wrote:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5217438.stm


Thank goodness another European country with the right morals and leaders. Good thing they learnt from their past.
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stevieh
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PostPosted: 18:35 - 27 Jul 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Senna, you truely are a typical isreali.
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Kwaks
I'm not a fast rider



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: 20:01 - 03 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think Germany are simply looking for an excuse on this one. Rolling Eyes
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 03 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
kwaker6r wrote:
I think Germany are simply looking for an excuse on this one. Rolling Eyes


Correctamundo!


I accept that it is a legitimate concern, to be seen shooting Jews again, but with a UN mandate noone could accuse them of racism.

I'm still torn on this issue - I accept Israel's right to defend itself, I just deplore its heavy handed approach that will ultimately turn out to be counter productive.

Headlamp wrote:

I'm sorry to say, that this all an excuse....I wish people would wake up and smell the roses!! The current crisis in Lebanon is part of a much wider conflict - think Afghanistan, Iraq, Indonesia, Somalia, Al Quaeda, Chechyna, Sudan, Gaza as well as terrorist activity in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, India, Russia etc. It is all connected - state backed radical Islam pursuing their goal of recreating the 12th century Caliphate, under Sharia law. At least Israel is confronting this tyranny, as it has most to lose, whereas the rest of the world pussy foots around


I do agree with the above - I just don't think that blowing up countless civilians is doing any of us any favours.
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headlamp
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Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 03 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
I do agree with the above - I just don't think that blowing up countless civilians is doing any of us any favours.


True. I have just spent the evening with an Israeli & not a usually patriotic one at that! However his nephew has just returned from Lebanon after being wounded (shot in the leg) in a Hezbollah ambush, that saw two of his mates killed. His attitude is that Hezbollah is firing rockets into Israel, indiscriminately, killing (today) a dozen or so civilians. The Israeli army warns people that they are going to attack and then bombs the crap out of an area and if the people choose not to leave then they must be Hezbollah supporters or members, so consequently legitimate targets. The general Israeli attitude is that Hezbollah & it's main backer Iran wants to see the destruction of the Jewish state and Israel has to do everything in its power to prevent that from happening. If you kill a few Shi'ite Arabs in the process then so be it.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 03 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Unfortunatly that attitude will probably make the problem far worse in the long term.

All the best

Keith
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stevieh
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: 23:29 - 03 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed with the above post. Your saying that, because 15 israeli's were killed, it gives israel the right to kill 50 civilians just to get the freedom-fighting hezbollah members?
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 23:31 - 03 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
headlamp wrote:

The Israeli army warns people that they are going to attack and then bombs the crap out of an area and if the people choose not to leave then they must be Hezbollah supporters or members, so consequently legitimate targets.


And the ones who don't get the warnings? Who can't leave? Who don't want to leave?

It's an unacceptable strategy, and it is one that deliberately targets civilian areas.

Quote:

The general Israeli attitude is that Hezbollah & it's main backer Iran wants to see the destruction of the Jewish state and Israel has to do everything in its power to prevent that from happening. If you kill a few Shi'ite Arabs in the process then so be it.


And that is why the Arabs are going to win in the long run. We all know that a muslim bomb is going to happen in the near future - every dead civilian in this conflict is one more family that will be screaming for Iran to use it on the Jews. They will, Israel will cease to exist over-night, everybody loses.

I have sympathy with the Israeli predicament, and I understand why they wish to establish a fire-break around their borders. I don't understand why they - for the millionth time - are using their legitimate greivances to justify racist murder on a grand scale.
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Didge
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Joined: 02 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 04 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe it has something to do with this.

https://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2281184_1,00.html

Also, that typical of muslim terroists, they hide and fire their weapons from civilian places.
As for the nuclear threat to Israel mentioned above, do you not think that Israel would not retaliate straight away? Even before the attacking nuke has detonated, the country that fired it would only have minutes left to exist.
Israel is consistant, in if it is attacked, it hits back hard. The government and people of Lebonon know this, and yet they allow Hizbollah to constantly attack Israel from within it's borders. Let us not forget who started this particular little skermish.
If you stir up a hornets nest, then be prepared to get stung.
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 04 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do you honestly think I wasn't aware of Iran's ambitions in the region? They were briefing us on it when I was a rating in OPS/HQ 9 years ago, long before all the recent bother.

Quote:

Also, that typical of muslim terroists, they hide and fire their weapons from civilian places.


Or indeed any other terrorists - welcome to asymmetric warfare fella - population us.

If you were a terrorist/freedom fighter/nutter, facing a vastly superior force, would you plumb for a toe-to-toe fight, or would you use every advantage you could get? How else do you expect them to fight?

Quote:

As for the nuclear threat to Israel mentioned above, do you not think that Israel would not retaliate straight away? Even before the attacking nuke has detonated, the country that fired it would only have minutes left to exist.


Again, do you think that I was blissfully unaware of Israels suspected special-weapons capabilities? Or that I don't believe they would use them?

Israel is such a tiny country, with all it's infrastructure located around Tel Aviv, that one nuke - even a suitcase job - would effectively destroy the whole country.

Islamic loonies don't care if they retaliate, assuming that they even manage to string together such an action, because the ends justify the means for them - loss of their own civilians is nothing more than more fuel for the fundamentalist fires.

Quote:

Israel is consistant


Oh, super. Consistent = right, yeah?

No.

Quote:

If you stir up a hornets nest, then be prepared to get stung.


Exactly the same applies to Israel, and they have more to lose.
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Didge
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Joined: 02 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 04 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Do you honestly think I wasn't aware of Iran's ambitions in the region? They were briefing us on it when I was a rating in OPS/HQ 9 years ago, long before all the recent bother.

Quote:

Also, that typical of muslim terroists, they hide and fire their weapons from civilian places.


Or indeed any other terrorists - welcome to asymmetric warfare fella - population us.

If you were a terrorist/freedom fighter/nutter, facing a vastly superior force, would you plumb for a toe-to-toe fight, or would you use every advantage you could get? How else do you expect them to fight?

Quote:

As for the nuclear threat to Israel mentioned above, do you not think that Israel would not retaliate straight away? Even before the attacking nuke has detonated, the country that fired it would only have minutes left to exist.


Again, do you think that I was blissfully unaware of Israels suspected special-weapons capabilities? Or that I don't believe they would use them?

Israel is such a tiny country, with all it's infrastructure located around Tel Aviv, that one nuke - even a suitcase job - would effectively destroy the whole country.

Islamic loonies don't care if they retaliate, assuming that they even manage to string together such an action, because the ends justify the means for them - loss of their own civilians is nothing more than more fuel for the fundamentalist fires.

Quote:

Israel is consistant


Oh, super. Consistent = right, yeah?

No.

Quote:

If you stir up a hornets nest, then be prepared to get stung.


Exactly the same applies to Israel, and they have more to lose.


I agree with much of what you say, but my main point was, that if Hezbollah fight Israel, whilst hiding amoung civilians, then there are going to be civilian casualties. Israel has no option than to target as it does, otherwise it might just as well roll over and let the terrorists do what they want.
As i said before, Israel did not start this latest skirmish. If Hezbollah had not have killed two of Israels soldiers, and kidnapped another two, this particular affair would not of kicked off.
Hezbollah exists purely to destroy Israel, so, IMO at least, Israel has no option than to do what it is doing.
Read the Times article I linked to in the previous post. If anything, I think someone needs to nuke Iran.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 04 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I both read your linked article and understood the thrust of your comments. I believe that you have drawn the wrong conclusions, and I know that the Israelis have.

Their current campaign deliberately targets civilians, and is stirring up opposition and hatred all over the world. They have achieved limited success against the Hezbollah forces, whilst stoking the fires of hatred in the region, and providing huge and positive publicity for any guerillas who wish to hurt Israel.

Bombing homes and businesses, then justifying it by having sent a leaflet in the morning, is not acceptable - and cruciall, is not helping.

I despise the Iranian regime, and its attempts at Hegemony in the region - but knowing what we do, how can you justify the fact that Israel is playing right into the Mullahs hands.
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zaknafien




Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 04 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Didge wrote:
If anything, I think someone needs to nuke Iran.


It's not going to be nuked but it will be invaded before the year is out.

The USS Abraham Lincoln and the USS Enterprise have recently arrived in the gulf while the the USS Ronald Reagan has been in the gulf for some time.

If they can't get an excuse from the nuclear issue they'll get one from the support of Hezbollah.
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headlamp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 04 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
zaknafien wrote:
It's not going to be nuked but it will be invaded before the year is out.

For once I actually agree with you on this point. The US are sending additional troops to Iraq as well, despite the new Iraqi Army almost being fully operational!
Mister James wrote:
Their current campaign deliberately targets civilians, and is stirring up opposition and hatred all over the world. They have achieved limited success against the Hezbollah forces, whilst stoking the fires of hatred in the region, and providing huge and positive publicity for any guerillas who wish to hurt Israel.

No, Israel does not deliberately target civilians. It targets Hizbollah who choose to place their assets in civilian areas. The opposition and hatred for Israel is not universal and there are some Arab countries, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia who are mainly Sunnis who want to see Shi'ite led Iranian backed Hizbollah take a good battering. Israel is for once not fighting a load of sandal wearing, idealistic cannon fodder, but an army that is well equipped (by Iran), well trained (by Iran) and well run (by Iran). The limited success so far has been due to Israel's initial slow response. That will change. The consequences of a Hizbollah 'victory' or a ceasfire before this organisation is deconstructed will be immensely damaging to the West, as well as the more moderate Arab states across the Middle East and the Gulf.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 19:59 - 04 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Didge wrote:
I agree with much of what you say, but my main point was, that if Hezbollah fight Israel, whilst hiding amoung civilians, then there are going to be civilian casualties. Israel has no option than to target as it does, otherwise it might just as well roll over and let the terrorists do what they want.


They have plenty of choice for far more targetted attacks, and I am sure have a decent number of highly trained special ops troops.

All the best

Keith
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colin1
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Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 01:10 - 05 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Casualties from Hezbollah are tiny compared to what Israel is inflicting on Lebanon.

Im not saying Hezbollah are the good guys but they are gonna have a hell of a lot more support after Israel decides to shell civilians who live where Hezbollah operate.

This is probably good for Hezbollah as they will have loads more volunteers and loads more donations.

If someone passed around a collections tin I might even be tempted to contribute myself.

The only reason Hezbollah are attacking Israel is that Israel occupies land it took in the 6 day war, which it should give back. Israel is the aggressor.

The only reasons Bush backs Israel is for Jewish votes and a foothold in the middle east. Blair backs Bush because he has lost his moral compass and thinks we might get something out of being mates with America but we wont.

Im more annoyed with Blair and his willingness to support general killing than with Bush or Israel. Bush is stupid and selfish, Israel feels cornered and lashes our irrationally, but Blair is clever enough to know better. His judgement is fucked and the sooner we have a new labour prime minister the better. Labour is more right wing than the liberals these days.

The idea that Israel gets to invade Lebanon but not have the hassle of controlling it and we get to pay for an occupying 'peace-keeping force' really sucks.
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headlamp
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Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 09:27 - 05 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
They have plenty of choice for far more targetted attacks, and I am sure have a decent number of highly trained special ops troops.

All the best

Keith


This what happens...Hizbollah roll up to a farmhouse or village with a rocket launcher(s) loaded with Katyushas. They set the timer and bugger off. The missile salvo launches and as they do, they are picked up on radar and the co-ordinates are fed into a computer (I guess) which then sounds the air raid siren in the likely targetted area and informs the Israeli Airforce that missiles have been launched as well as their location . The pilot(s) who are in the air patrolling then goes to the location and bombs the crap out of it, destroying the missile launcher and usually the surrounding buildings just in case the Hizbollah (or Iranian Revolutionary Guard) are still around. Anything else moving in a given radius of that location will also be given a bit of a pounding just in case it is Hizbollah.

colin1 wrote:
The only reason Hezbollah are attacking Israel is that Israel occupies land it took in the 6 day war, which it should give back. Israel is the aggressor.


That is what Hizbollah wants you to believe - the "occupied" territories of Lebanon is a 100sq km of land called the Shebaa farms, which Israel actually took form Syria in (I think) 1967. It has been disputed territory since partition in the 1920's. This is not a war about Israel vs. Hizbollah. It's actually about who controls the Middle East. Just as Hizbollah are the proxy army of Iran (who want to recreate the Persian Empire & control all the Arabs), Israel is the proxy army of the West, who want to see a more liberal, democratised Middle East as well as (let's face it) protect the oil fields.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 05 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
disputed my arse
israel took it and wont give it back

blair talks about we should have more 'moderates' rather than extremists but i dont see how the use of heavy weapons on populated areas is being moderate.

This kind of action is just going to increase extremists.

If Iran wanted attention off it, by getting hezbollah to attack a bit more, shelling the shit out of the area is just giving Iran what they want.

Terrorists or resistance fighters grow in numbers if you slaughter civilians in attempts to stop them.

Now they are killing syrians too. So what if syria is supplying the forces resisting the Israeli invasion. Israel has no right to invade another country and reduce it to rubble just because there are a few terrorists hiding there.

But Bush did it with Afghanistan so hes hardly gonna object, and he did it with Iraq when Iraq wasnt even a threat, just a bit lippy.
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 05 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
colin1 wrote:
disputed my arse
israel took it and wont give it back

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms There you go Colin1 - all you need to know about the disputed territory and a little more besides.
colin1 wrote:
blair talks about we should have more 'moderates' rather than extremists but i dont see how the use of heavy weapons on populated areas is being moderate.

Your right about that - but from an Israeli perspective the continuing rocket attacks on the towns and civilians don't make the average Israeli 'moderate' either. Fortunately the majority of the civilian population in Southern Lebanon has fled (as it has done so from Northern Israel).
colin1 wrote:
This kind of action is just going to increase extremists.

I doubt it - but it will make getting a peaceful resolution much harder for both sides. Although I doubt whether Hizbollah will ever want a peaceful solution as their stated aim is the total dissolution of The State of Israel
Quote:
Nevertheless, the current Lebanese claim to this area is one reason now asserted for Hezbollah's continuing conflict with Israel, and cross-border attacks.[8] However, Hezbollah's spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin had this to say about the area: "If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine...[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.” New Yorker, (October 14, 2002).

colin1 wrote:
If Iran wanted attention off it, by getting hezbollah to attack a bit more, shelling the shit out of the area is just giving Iran what they want.

Correct, but it is very high stakes for Iran. The are counting on the support of the Sunni Moslems (Arabs) to support them. If Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Kuwait and the Gulf States stand behind the US & Europe, which it is very likely to do then Iran will be isolated. Let's not forget the Palestinians in all this. They are suffering terribly - Israel is fighting a war of attrition with Hamas - I reckon they will 'capitulate' this week, return the kidnapped soldier (or his body) and go for a ceasefire. No more Qassam's into Southern Israel. Hamas, for political reasons may even declare Israel's right to exist. That will be a body blow for Iran as it will be the first cracks in 'Islam Solidarity' against the 'Zionists'.
colin1 wrote:
Now they are killing syrians too. So what if syria is supplying the forces resisting the Israeli invasion. Israel has no right to invade another country and reduce it to rubble just because there are a few terrorists hiding there.

...who were in Lebanon and working on a 'fruit farm'. In fact when Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, Hizbollah moved into Southern Lebanon and created a quasi military structure, including watchtowers, arms caches, tunnels etc. Israel didn't move on Hizbollah until they were attacked. If it were the case Hizbollah were just 'hiding' I would agree with you, however they are launching 100's of rockets at civilians and fighting Iran's war by proxy.
colin1 wrote:
But Bush did it with Afghanistan so hes hardly gonna object, and he did it with Iraq when Iraq wasnt even a threat, just a bit lippy.

Afghanistan is one issue, Iraq another...basically two sides of the same coin. When there is a power vacuum someone (usually undesirable to Western interests) is going to take over. Bush made a huge mistake going into Iraq - it was personal, to finish off what is father started. 9/11 was the excuse. Wrong country.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 05 Aug 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I really dont see why you think Israel shelling civilians couldnt possibly mean more donations and new recruits for Hezbollah.

Im sure moderate Muslims around the world are turning a bit more extreme at each new atrocity, and some are bound to give a bit of cash to help Hezbollah fight the invaders.
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