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Wanted man leaves country by wearing a veil

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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 21 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Once again - have you considered that they may be telling porkies? Why should our justice system grind to a halt because they tell un-provable lies? I'm not trying to be rude, but you really don't seem to have a clue as to the nature of this problem. I applaud your humane instincts, but the principles you cherish simply do not apply in the overwhelming majority of asylum/criminal cases. They rely on affable suckers like you to weight the system in their favour.

Of course I am fully aware that a high percentage are probably lying. I would do in similar circumstances. But unless we can guarantee safety, then I am against deportation.

Its the same as the normal criminal justice system...

Innocent until proven guilty, and guilt must be "beyond reasonable doubt"

I don't think we should deport unless the safety is beyond reasonable doubt.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 20:21 - 21 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:

Of course I am fully aware that a high percentage are probably lying. I would do in similar circumstances. But unless we can guarantee safety, then I am against deportation.


It is not for this country to provide for the safety of everyone, everywhere in the world, especially when it makes life more dangerous and more unpleasant for its own citizens.

Quote:

Its the same as the normal criminal justice system...

Innocent until proven guilty, and guilt must be "beyond reasonable doubt"


I quite agree, so national governments recognised by the UN and by our own, should be given the benefit of the doubt in each and every case, until unfounded allegations are proven. Why should the burden of proof be on us?

Quote:

I don't think we should deport unless the safety is beyond reasonable doubt.


You could argue that removing people to 90% of the countries in the world would result in them being less safe than in Britain, so where do we draw the line? I fail to see how allowing criminals and carpet-baggers carte blanche to abuse our laws by accepting their unproven allegations that they may face vague and unspecified persecution helps our nation (or genuine asylum seekers) in any way.

What is your solution to the problem, if you intend to allow anyone who lies to stay here?

Bear in mind that many of these countries drag their feet when asked to take these people back - if they can recognise their undesirables, why are we being dumb enough to keep them?
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 21:01 - 21 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've just found a prime example - the very gentleman discussed in the original post:

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6200557.stm

Quote:

Jamma had served four prison terms for offences including robbery, theft and drug dealing.

In such a case, deportation to the country of origin would be expected to follow, either as a result of a court order at the time of sentence or an administrative decision later by the home secretary.


Obviously, in none of those cases deportation followed, and now we have a dead police woman. The fact that he has probably fled back to Somalia suggests that whatever reason he had for not returning was bull.
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 21 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:

The fact that he has probably fled back to Somalia suggests that whatever reason he had for not returning was bull.


"fact"... "probably". Hmm.

Any argument, any point of view can always be countered with an example of where it goes wrong.
I wont pretend to have all the answers. I am purely dealing with black and whites here (no pun intended), and each case needs to be dealt with on its own. All I am saying is I would not send someone to there possible death. If someone is allowed into the country in the first place, then they should be treated equally. they should be dealt with with the same laws that apply to you or me.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 09:28 - 22 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:


Any argument, any point of view can always be countered with an example of where it goes wrong.



Indeed. What concerns me is that you have once again resisted my encouragement to clarify your position in the light of such examples.

Quote:

I wont pretend to have all the answers. I am purely dealing with black and whites here (no pun intended), and each case needs to be dealt with on its own.


You don't have any of the answers! The whole point of the sorry immigration debacle is that it isn't black and white, despite the best efforts of well-meaning do-gooders like yourself. Why is it that Bush is laughed at for seeing things as Good or Evil, but when it comes to happy-clappy, hands-around-the-world liberalism in this country, it's all good? Each case IS dealt with on its own, but there has to be an overarching strategy or policy to ensure consistency. A crucial tenet of that policy should be that we do not allow the ECHR to be used as a stick to beat us around the head with - usually at our expense as we pay for the legal costs!

Quote:
All I am saying is I would not send someone to there possible death. If someone is allowed into the country in the first place, then they should be treated equally. they should be dealt with with the same laws that apply to you or me.


Ok, your grip on this situation seems to be slipping. The majority of people considered for removal weren't allowed into the country, or have overstayed their allotted time here. They are treated equally under the law (including the right to use huge sums of taxpayers money to fight their cases) but due to their behaviour and actions are subject to areas of the law that your average British citizen is not.
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 09:39 - 22 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok.

No it isn't black and white. the black and white simply describes my stance on one point.

If an immigrant legal or otherwise commits a crime they should be dealt with under the law...
If illegally here then they should be deported "if it is clear that they will not be subject to torture or death in their own country" and provided their country of origin will have them.
If legal they should be dealt with under the criminal justice system.

I am not a "well-meaning do-gooder" - I am just someone has a strong sense of right and wrong, and doesn't want to see the the justice system sullied by sending people inadvertently or otherwise to their death.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 22 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
Ok.

If an immigrant legal or otherwise commits a crime they should be dealt with under the law...



They are - well, aside from the large numbers who are dealt with in their communities by 'justice' systems totally separate and incompatible with ours.

Quote:

If illegally here then they should be deported "if it is clear that they will not be subject to torture or death in their own country" and provided their country of origin will have them.


Here is the key issue that you are constantly ducking.

Most of them, I'd go as far as saying over 99%, face no more persecution or fear of death than any other person living in their home country does.

The number of true asylum seekers fleeing DEATH are tiny, almost everyone comes here because it is a better standard of life than back home. Understandable, but unsustainable for us.

At the moment, the immigration system is constantly frustrated by people using our money to pay for legal challenges that use human rights legislation to muddy the waters and stop their removal - despite little or no proof that they will be receiving so much as a stern ticking off when they arrive at the airport in Kingston.

Quote:

If legal they should be dealt with under the criminal justice system.


They are - and then they are quite rightly dealt with by the Immigration Service to determine whether their status as a legal immigrant is still desirable to this country. We have enough criminal vermin of our own, without adding to it.

Quote:

I am not a "well-meaning do-gooder" - I am just someone has a strong sense of right and wrong, and doesn't want to see the the justice system sullied by sending people inadvertently or otherwise to their death.


The 'well-meaning' bit refers to your (laudable - as I keep saying) concept of right and wrong. The 'do-gooder' tag is applied because I believe you have no concept whatsoever of the scale of deception and deceit being inflicted upon this country by those you seek to protect. As such, you are part of the problem.
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GodzGift
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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PostPosted: 11:05 - 23 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
throw all of them in the middle of the ocean = issue solved

:: LOOK AN R1 ::
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 19 years, 249 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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