Just what, exactly, is the point?

Hetzer · Super Spammer Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Karma :

Still no examples Keith. You lose.
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Fawbish · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Karma :

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Fawbish · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Karma :

Hmm.

A soldier rustled to war in the 1st world war. Called up, signed up, weapon slapped in hand and he is forced to go to war.

He doesnt want to be there, in the trenches. He doesnt want to die for his country. He doesnt want to go "over the top" but does so and is shot. He dies.

Pleasure anywhere there? I must admit, I'm struggling with this one.
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pa_broon74 · World Chat Champion Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Karma :

Its the same as the water in the desert anology. Its the difference between motivation and outcome, the motivation isn't pleasure, its just a by-product of the outcome.

In the case of the soldier going off to war, I know exactly what Hetzer will say, nobility or pride begets a feel good factor ergo, pleasure. But the whole premise of his argument is wrong.

Human motivation is not for pleasure, it is to survive. Pleasure is just an outcome of that motivation (Assuming you did in fact survive.) I still maintain (and no one has been able to disprove it.) A man dying of thirst is not driven by the pleasure of drinking water, eh's driven by the fact that if he doesn't, he'll die.

That logic is infallable and it hasn't been refuted or properly disproved by anyone.

The idea that if you're not feeling pleasure you must be feeling pain and vice versa is again, highly subjective and depends on the individual. If this was the case, surely it would mean that you were bipolar.

The human condition isn't black or white or on or off, its all grey. Thats why this argument is so circular, Hezter is trying to 'prove' human behaviour and you just can't do that, its why there are only theories in psychology and no rules. (Unlike physics where you have formalae to explain the world.)

While I agree that much of what a human does is to gain pleasure (a trait unique to humans??) It isn't our main motivation, our reason de etre. That is far more elusive and certainly could never be measured or proven, perhaps if you do that, it'll spell the end of the race...

In terms of the man seeking power for example, do you think a man with power would ever give up looking for more? The outcome of getting that power and all its trappings is undoubtedly pleasure, his motivations on the other hand for seeking it are impossible to predict.

This is where I disagree with Hetzer, its the distinction between Motivation and outcome, they are not the same thing at all.

And as far as I am concerned, no one has adequately refuted the man dying of thirst in the desert thing. Cool

It has stood the test to my way of thinking. I don't doubt after he's drunk it, he'll be thinking "golly, that was nice." But as he's approaching it; he can't swallow for the dryness in his throat and the cramps in his gut, can't think properly due to the dehydration, the crippling headaches... Almost able to feel his vital organs shutting down one by one...

He's not thinking, "Hoots mon! I'm going to enjoy this..." He's thinking, "Mummy! I don't want to die like this..." (Much like your soldier going to war I imagine...)

Thumbs Up

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colin1 · Captain Safety Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Karma :

Hetzer · Super Spammer Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Karma :

In all the examples above, ask yourselves how the person might feel if he didn't commit the acts. Sense of personal failure? Despair? What's the balance between doing something and not doing it in terms of emotional response? How about the path of least resistance vs possible reward. Best reward for doing it or for not doing it?

In all cases human beings seek the best possible outcome, the best advantage, even where all possible options are bad (the least of all evils). In a worst-case scenario, where the best possible choice is still shit, the end result will be a rationalisation "Well, it could have been worse." Solace, consolation, relief, best of a bad job. Some sense of satisfaction at having handled an impossible situation as well as it could have been handled.

I think you chaps are applying too gross a definition on the idea of 'pleasure'. It's far more subtle than that, even abstract in some cases. But it still comes down to the same fundamental thing, a person will seek the best possible outcome, and if that is achieved it will give some measure of positive feeling, satisfaction, relief. And all of those words are ways of describing pleasure, of quantifying it.
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pa_broon74 · World Chat Champion Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Karma :

Fawbish · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Karma :

Right, this is a bastard hard one.

Youre saying that Dying > Drink Water > Survive > BYPRODUCT: Pleasure

Whereas I really cant help being inclined to believe that

Dying > Drink Water > Survive > CAUSE: Pleasure - as hetz says, in a significant and non-obvious way, but its still there.

To be honest, what the fuck stops pleasure being the root cause AND the by-product?

What if the by-product is needed to produce the cause?

Who says we work in one direction? Hmm?
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pa_broon74 · World Chat Champion Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Karma :

Fawbish · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Karma :

Okay then, whats the why behind surviving?

I know, it can vary a hundred thousand times over for the individual, but if you look at the "why" behind survival, I reckon you'll find some form of pleasure 99% of the time.

Ergo: Im dying of thirst, but theres a bottle of water here that will enable me to survive.

But wait. Why do I want to survive?

Well, I havent had kids yet. So I cannot carry on my species.

So you want to have kids to carry on your species. Why?

It is ingrained in my genetic system to reproduce.

Ok. So what will you feel if you survive, and can accomplish this goal?

Well. I'll feel good I suppose. BANG. Pleasure. AND I took the long way around, taking into account parts where you could just say "thats it" when really...you cant just say "thats it" because we wouldnt be having this discussion otherwise.

*shrugs* < I like shrugging. I do it too much though.
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pa_broon74 · World Chat Champion Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Karma :

I think survival is the most basic of instincts, it needs no 'why' or 'what for.'

Asking what's the 'why' behind surviving is like asking why are we here at all.

If someone was pushing you towards the edge of a building and you knew that with minimal opposite force you could stop yourself from being pushed off, do you: a) Let yourself be pushed off or b) Stop it.

I'll assume you'd do B, but why? Avoidance of pain? Thrill of nearly dying? An affirmation of life?

Ask yourself the same question but assume your being attacked by someone of equal power, so no gaurantees you'll be able to stop it from happening. You do B again, but are the why's still the same?

Mmm... I've got myself shrugging now... Confused

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Fawbish · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Karma :

Wafer_Thin_Ham · Super Spammer Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Karma :

I don't think it's about pleasure, it's just genetically hardwired into us to reproduce. Like the way baby turtles immediately leg it to the ocean as soon as they hatch. It's in our dna to want to carry on the species....I think pleasure is more of a by product than the why.
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pa_broon74 · World Chat Champion Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Karma :

But do you think reproducing is just another function of the basic urge to survive?

I ask because I don't feel the need to reproduce on any level that I can identify. Perhaps its more programmed if you are female. Confused

Wafer_Thin_Ham · Super Spammer Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Karma :

Hetzer · Super Spammer Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Karma :

Hetzer · Super Spammer Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Karma :

Evolution has made pleasure the motivation to survive because it is the most effective method. Think about it. The best possible reward for doing something that gives the best possible chance of survival is pleasure.

As sapient beings we have subverted it to our own ends. The subversion of it has given it an abstract nature in many cases but it's still the same animal.
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