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Val
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Val wrote:
Death per capita gives you what is probability to be killed. Number of deaths per gun gives you how safe is gun ownership per gun.

Using your logic the US with over 400 million guns is significantly safer than the UK when it comes to gun crime ownership Neutral I think we made a mistake keeping you Val.


Yes it is. US gun owners are more safe. There are more deaths in the UK with a lot less guns available.

In the UK with 0.5m guns you have 30 deaths per 100 000 guns, in the US with 400m guns they have 5 deaths per 100 000 guns. That is US gun owners behave 6 times better the UK ones.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Val wrote:

Yes it is. US gun owners are more safe. There are more deaths in the UK with a lot less guns available.

In the UK with 0.5m guns you have 30 deaths per 100 000 guns, in the US with 400m guns they have 5 deaths per 100 000 guns. That is US gun owners behave 6 times better the UK ones.


Except:
1. Most guns used in crime are illegally held, and so using the number of legally held guns makes no sense. I didn't realise there was a "For use in crime" box on a firearms application?
2. One person who owns 100 guns is only going to use 1 of them commit a murder, not all 100. So by your logic we can make our country safer by giving armed gangs extra guns
3. Murders do not occur because guns exist, but because people want to kill each other, usually for power, money or drugs. We need to focus on the root causes.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

3. Murders do not occur because guns exist, but because people want to kill each other, usually because they are annoying Bulgarians

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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:04 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
No one commented on the French gun deaths?!

UK, France and Germany have roughly comparable populations (70/70/85 million) yet the Frogs lead the way by a large margin Shocked
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 23:50 - 21 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
No one commented on the French gun deaths?!

UK, France and Germany have roughly comparable populations (70/70/85 million) yet the Frogs lead the way by a large margin Shocked


The French population has been more enriched with a diversity of diversities Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 08:51 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mustn't forget the guns of peace!
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 09:33 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

3. Murders do not occur because guns exist, but because people want to kill each other, usually for power, money or drugs. We need to focus on the root causes.


We? Surely you mean 'muricans? The problem (one of) with the US is the same bonkers libertarianism that promotes gun ownership is behind the twisted logic behind not taking responsibility for or putting measures in place to ameliorate root causes.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guns don't kill people rappers do but they are an "enabler." If you're a recovering alcoholic probably the first thing you'd do is clear out all the beer and whiskey from the cupboards.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Or only let women have guns, going by these stats its blokes who are the problem
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not wasting anymore time with the village idiot Brick Wall

Ribenapigeon wrote:
Or only let women have guns, going by these stats its blokes who are the problem
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

I think you meant to post this one, but if you were making a point with the racial breakdown* of mass shooters, over that period the white/non-hispanic population in the US was almost 80% in the 80's and a little under 60% now. From memory black people have stayed at around 12-13%, hispanics have gone from 6.5% to 18.7% of the population Shocked
*53 percent [white shooters], 16 percent [black shooters], and eight percent [latino shooters]

If there was some way of enforcing only women having guns, say a biometric gun I'd agree.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:56 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Or only let women have guns, going by these stats its blokes who are the problem
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/
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Weisse Schlange
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Sorry but handguns absolutely banned in the uk unless military or police.

Same with automatic weapons.


Wrong on both counts. Like completely wrong.

Both are held by private individuals in the UK.

If they were banned what would the armed police and soldiers do ?. They still have to comply with firearms laws.

Plenty folk hold handguns for both humane dispatch of animals, (foxes, deer, horses etc etc , They can even be held for shooting rats ffs.

Also prison officers , police officers, politicians etc and other private individuals can apply to hold for personal protection.


Machine guns can and are held by private individuals for a number of reasons including historical importance, and maritime security.
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Weisse Schlange
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:




Yeah black powder pistols are exempt if they are not intended as a weapon i.e have no ammo. It's so easy to get a shotgun certificate that black powder makes no sense. Shotguns with birdshot aren't much use but you can have 000 buck on SC I believe which is about as good as it gets when it comes to stopping power short of a slug/00. It laughs at 5.56 and especially 9mm from a pistol Laughing.

https://youtu.be/rhZf_x8Esms?t=242


Wrong

BP pistols can be shot all over the bloody place. Perfectly legal to own and shoot.

Correct about the shotguns though.
Everyone is entitled to a shotgun certificate.

If you go the section 1 route you can own an AK styled semi auto 12 bore and fit a 100 round box magazine.

Add 3" magnum AAA cartridges and you have one of the most devastating close quarters weapons in the world.

Perfectly legal in the UK.
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Last edited by Weisse Schlange on 16:13 - 22 Jul 2022; edited 1 time in total
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Weisse Schlange
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:

Sorry but that is straight up moronic.

Then lots of other stuff


Japan may have a low murder rate but banning is not the answer in my opinion.
Knife murders in the UK anyone ?


As for the types of guns statement, no, the popular hanguns of choice these days are imported from Eastern Europe

The media trying to convince you it's converted vintage guns is more to do with someones motive to get rid of all guns at all costs, conveniently ignoring the actual problems.
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Tarmacsurfer
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
I did this when i was fifteen. Only difference was i closed off one end by tapping a thread on the pipe and screwing a small block of steel on. I managed to puncture a steel garage door at twenty five feet with a ball bearing. The ball bearing didnt go all the way through and I was lucky it didn't bounce back and hit me.


I was a lot less technical around the age of 8. We weren't a rich family and I discovered a number of large bullets (it was a belt of old .50 cal) in a box in my dad's workshop. This was in an era when schoolkids loved bullet keyrings, commando and so forth, I took a couple and showed off in the playground. Sold one (it bought me two Mr.Freeze!) and went my merry way.

This of course got me into an awful lot of trouble when it was discovered I was selling live .50 cal ammunition. Not to be dissuaded from this newly discovered goldmine I decided - logically, I feel - that they couldn't bitch at me if the bullets couldn't go off. But how to do this? Bear in mind I was very young, in a very rural area and there was no internet to consult.

My cunning plan was to place said bullet in a vice, clout the back of it with a ball peen hammer and then get the "front bit" back and stuff it in the brass again. I'd seen my dad making .38 rounds up so it seemed the sensible approach. Placed the bullet accordingly, stood on an old crate to get to the vice, smacked it. Vice promptly leaves the bench and embed itself in the wall while blowing me backwards off my perch as it goes, a hole appears in the barn door, a larger hole in the sides of my father's old Bedford van and a then small tree in the distance. Obviously the bullet was never found, and all of the available ammunition in the house was placed under much more secure storage (the case of .50 got thrown into the bottom of a septic tank he was fitting for someone). That was the end of my foray into arms dealing. Don't think I sat down for a month.

While I don't agree explicitly with gun controls as they exist now, I certainly acknowledge that I was remarkably lucky Laughing
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
You clearly didn't notice that I exempted military and police when you quoted me and asked about the military and police.
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Weisse Schlange
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
You clearly didn't notice that I exempted military and police when you quoted me and asked about the military and police.


What difference does it make. It's still wrong I'm afraid.

No gun is banned in the UK.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:27 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
I suppose if we want to be pedantic it's not the guns that are banned but the people; the bureaucratic hoops to go through to get a gun licence.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Weisse Schlange wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:




Yeah black powder pistols are exempt if they are not intended as a weapon i.e have no ammo. It's so easy to get a shotgun certificate that black powder makes no sense. Shotguns with birdshot aren't much use but you can have 000 buck on SC I believe which is about as good as it gets when it comes to stopping power short of a slug/00. It laughs at 5.56 and especially 9mm from a pistol Laughing.

https://youtu.be/rhZf_x8Esms?t=242


Wrong

BP pistols can be shot all over the bloody place. Perfectly legal to own and shoot.

Correct about the shotguns though.
Everyone is entitled to a shotgun certificate.

If you go the section 1 route you can own an AK styled semi auto 12 bore and fit a 100 round box magazine.

Add 3" magnum AAA cartridges and you have one of the most devastating close quarters weapons in the world.

Perfectly legal in the UK.


Wrong.

You CANNOT own a black powder pistol and shoot it without a licence. It is only licence exempt if it is non-functional and kept as an antique.

https://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/gunlaw.htm
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 19:29 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Weisse Schlange wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
You clearly didn't notice that I exempted military and police when you quoted me and asked about the military and police.


What difference does it make. It's still wrong I'm afraid.

No gun is banned in the UK.


Many things are de facto banned. You're just being pedantic which tbf you do seem to enjoy in an attempt to annoy Nobby. There is no reasonable way for an ordinary member of the public to obtain a section 5 licence. A vet could get a captive bolt gun or similar but it is only permitted for putting down cattle not casual recreational shooting. A firearms dealer can get a licence for restricted rifles, but again nobody is going to want to run a whole firearms import business just to plink with a semi-auto 5.56 or 6.8 Laughing

@Everyone else, while many firearm owners are annoying pedants, they are ultimately quite harmless as this guy has helpfully illustrated for us. I'm quite confident that if we had this debate in person he would not attempt to shoot me.
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Weisse Schlange
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:


Many things are de facto banned. You're just being pedantic which tbf you do seem to enjoy in an attempt to annoy Nobby. There is no reasonable way for an ordinary member of the public to obtain a section 5 licence. A vet could get a captive bolt gun or similar but it is only permitted for putting down cattle not casual recreational shooting. A firearms dealer can get a licence for restricted rifles, but again nobody is going to want to run a whole firearms import business just to plink with a semi-auto 5.56 or 6.8 Laughing

@Everyone else, while many firearm owners are annoying pedants, they are ultimately quite harmless as this guy has helpfully illustrated for us. I'm quite confident that if we had this debate in person he would not attempt to shoot me.


I'm sorry but you're not correct.
I never stated anyone could own black powder, but if you have a cert, then you can.
You stated they were legal because ammo was not available, but that's not true, they are shot everywhere by allsorts.

Also, normal everyday members of the public DO own handguns and other section 5 firearms. Not bolt guns, but unrestricted semi auto pistols fitted with moderators if required.

Home office guidelines state if you have valid reason, you can obtain one.
Deer stalkers have them, terrier men for fox hunts have them, Collectors have them.
As I said, many people have them, they are not banned and they are not as restricted as folk think.

Many more have them for personal protection at home than you would think as well. Some members of the public are deemed more important than others so are granted sec5.

Maritime security are just normal blokes working on ships. Not soldiers.

And for the record, I'm not trying to annoy anyone. I'm simply telling people the facts.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 22 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Have we got it right then? (In the UK at least.) Where there is a real need ppl have them but not merely for comfort as in the US. We don't have a massive problem with gun related deaths and, least we forget, suicide by gun outweighs all other across the pond Thinking
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Weisse Schlange
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PostPosted: 09:51 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Have we got it right then? (In the UK at least.) Where there is a real need ppl have them but not merely for comfort as in the US. We don't have a massive problem with gun related deaths and, least we forget, suicide by gun outweighs all other across the pond Thinking


Pretty much.

The only thing I would say is that you can have a shotgun with no reason.
You're entitled to one, everyone is in the UK.

The local chief constable would have to find a good reason not to give you one, the onus being on them providing a good reason.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 10:25 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Weisse Schlange wrote:
The only thing I would say is that you can have a shotgun with no reason.
You're entitled to one, everyone is in the UK.

If that were true you wouldn’t need a licence.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 11:27 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
This thread is now so boring it could drive you to shoot yourself Laughing
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The last post was made 2 years, 284 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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