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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: I'm Famous! Reply with quote
Well, not quite, but the closest I've been to being a household name!

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6187958.stm



Overall, it was a damning report, especially for management - but I managed to come out of it ok:

Quote:
However, inspectors did find some areas of good practice including good interaction between senior officers and detainees,


I do have concerns that they just seem to have taken the word of professional liars at face value. Nowhere in the 72 pages does it state that Inspectors witnessed inappropriate behaviour by staff, yet they are willing to base their report solely on the word of people who have been detained because they have dishonestly entered or remained in this country!

I've witnessed myself that otherwise civil and respectable detainees will lie without compunction if they believe it will improve their lot - so why do the Inspectors set so much store in them?

It's also interesting to note that they refer to the accommodation as institutional and inadequate, when everyone I know is horrified that the detainees have keys to their rooms, Sky TV, not locked down at night, etc!

Oh well, quite a funny read, one of my colleagues has managed to grab a significant amount of glory in the report - totally undeserved in my opinion, and all at the expense of the senior managers, so it will be interesting to see how things are when I go back to work at the weekend!
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Last edited by Mister James on 00:25 - 06 Jan 2007; edited 1 time in total
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byke95
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PostPosted: 15:25 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Re: I'm Famous! Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Nowhere in the 72 pages does it state that Inspectors witnessed inappropriate behaviour by staff, yet they are willing to base their report solely on the word of people who have been detained because they have dishonestly entered or remained in this country!


A good point, but I very much doubt staff are going to admit to intimidating/bullying the detainees.

Which does beg the question, how does an 'outsider' (and I mean that in a good way, a 'fresh pair of eyes' on the problem) take a accurate look at what is going on where you work?
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 15:54 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Re: I'm Famous! Reply with quote
byke95 wrote:

A good point, but I very much doubt staff are going to admit to intimidating/bullying the detainees.

Which does beg the question, how does an 'outsider' (and I mean that in a good way, a 'fresh pair of eyes' on the problem) take a accurate look at what is going on where you work?


Personally, I support many of their conclusions, I just think they give too much weight to detainee's opinions, without assessing who they are speaking to and the likelihood they are telling porkies. They have access to all our data, so it would be easy to find out whether the person spinning a tale of woe to them is, say, a convicted fraudster/rapist/recidivist disruptive detainee.

My complaint is a matter of scale rather than procedure.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
"What about my human rights Mr Siggi?!"
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colin1
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
i was all set to defend the report makers when i saw this bit in the bbc thing

"The report also criticised the management's over-emphasis on physical security and their strict control of all movements. These measures went as far as banning detainees from keeping nail clippers.

At the same time, actions to prevent self-harm and suicide were weak, despite the commitment of one co-ordinator. "

if banning detainees from keeping nail clippers is OTT, how are you gonna reduce self harm ? ludicrous

mostly tho, im sure bullying is the easiest method of control and even if u are nice to the little dears, im sure some of your colleagues arent
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
colin1 wrote:
i was all set to defend the report makers when i saw this bit in the bbc thing

"The report also criticised the management's over-emphasis on physical security and their strict control of all movements. These measures went as far as banning detainees from keeping nail clippers.

At the same time, actions to prevent self-harm and suicide were weak, despite the commitment of one co-ordinator. "

if banning detainees from keeping nail clippers is OTT, how are you gonna reduce self harm ? ludicrous


Well spotted Colin, and you are quite right. It gets even worse, because although we have a strict razer control policy to ensure self-harmers are supervised while shaving, the same guy can go to the shop and buy a glass jar of coffee - because the inspectors complained about the selection.

Quote:

mostly tho, im sure bullying is the easiest method of control and even if u are nice to the little dears, im sure some of your colleagues arent


Actually, it isn't the easiest method, because it always comes back to bite you in the arse in the end. The vast majority of staff treat the vast majority of detainees with respect - often more than they deserve.

The detainees interviewed by the inspectors were almost exclusively the loud-mouthed ex-con scrotes, who had a vested interest in painting as grim a picture as possible.
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Siggi wrote:
The solution is bloody simple in my book...if you don't like the free food, accomodation and facilities provided as a result of illegally entering our country, or bogusly claiming asylum, feel free to take your free airplane ticket and FUCK OFF back to whatever shithole it was you came from.

Free choice is such a heavy burden, ain't it?


Way harsh.

So you think the Zimbabwee bunch have no right to claim asylum?

This does seem like double standards Mr Siggi. In the end even if they are illegal, and taking the piss, they deserve some basic human rights. And that does not include bullying and such like.
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tatters
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: 21:02 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
Siggi wrote:
The solution is bloody simple in my book...if you don't like the free food, accomodation and facilities provided as a result of illegally entering our country, or bogusly claiming asylum, feel free to take your free airplane ticket and FUCK OFF back to whatever shithole it was you came from.

Free choice is such a heavy burden, ain't it?


they deserve some basic human rights. And that does not include bullying and such like.



Basic as in toilet/mattress/blanket/bread and water, anythink else is a piss take.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 21:20 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:

So you think the Zimbabwee bunch have no right to claim asylum?


You say 'bunch' as if they were a friendly little gang of schoolkids. Some of them are deeply unpleasant individuals, with no proof they were in any danger back home, who LIE to try and improve their lot.

Quote:

This does seem like double standards Mr Siggi. In the end even if they are illegal, and taking the piss, they deserve some basic human rights. And that does not include bullying and such like.


No doubt. Fortunate for them that there is no bullying going on in HW, and that for "victimisation" you can read "He was told 'no' and didn't like it".
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:


You say 'bunch' as if they were a friendly little gang of schoolkids. Some of them are deeply unpleasant individuals, with no proof they were in any danger back home, who LIE to try and improve their lot.


I can appreciate that fact, but I have to say, wouldn't you LIE to improve your lot in life, given their position? And WHOEVER and WHATEVER anyone is or has done, they deserve basic human rights.
Quote:


No doubt. Fortunate for them that there is no bullying going on in HW, and that for "victimisation" you can read "He was told 'no' and didn't like it".


Fair enough, if that's what you see then fine. But this is a good example why we shouldn't blow anything we read in the papers up and get all in a huff about it... PC nonsense included Wink - In the end if you spend too much time reading the Mail/Sun/Mirror/Telegraph/News of the World , you'll believe your next door neighour is a peadophile commie muslim asylum seeker come to blow up your bloody pets.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



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PostPosted: 21:40 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:

I can appreciate that fact, but I have to say, wouldn't you LIE to improve your lot in life, given their position? And WHOEVER and WHATEVER anyone is or has done, they deserve basic human rights.


You are still assuming that they were in some sort of crisis. The overwhelming number of illegals in this country are economic migrants. And no, generally I don't lie.

Quote:

Fair enough, if that's what you see then fine. But this is a good example why we shouldn't blow anything we read in the papers up and get all in a huff about it... PC nonsense included Wink - In the end if you spend too much time reading the Mail/Sun/Mirror/Telegraph/News of the World , you'll believe your next door neighour is a peadophile commie muslim asylum seeker come to blow up your bloody pets.


I'm one of the more experienced senior officers who has worked in every unit in the centre. If widespread bullying or victimisation or anything else was going on, I'd know about it, and contrary to my tough-guy throw-away comments on here, I'd have stopped it.

My beef is not with the media, but with the inspectors, who have intentionally misled the news and public to further certain goals - and of course justify their own positions.
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queen of string
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Joined: 13 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 28 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have worked with often lieing cheating bastards in various "healthcare settings " for most of my working life. As many of them have had to lie , cheat and generally scrabble just to survive, it's no surprise that's how they continue to operate. The problem of inspectors and visitors seeing only a narrow picture and incorrectly weighting information which is not corroborated is widespread imho.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 08:46 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6194410.stm

So, making misleading statements doesn't have any consequences at all, eh sports fans?
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 09:49 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh joy, guess who just got called in on his day off Sad
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
A few points from Killa

Stop taking blades from them, you’re near the limit of detainee’s now, keep the numbers down.

Shame the fire didn’t spread and burn the entire place down

I hope you’re lot keep the good work up, 60% of them feel unsafe, soon they won’t want to stay here!

And their cry for help was surprising, does this mean life isn’t so bad where they came from?
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
.......but with the inspectors, who have intentionally misled the news and public to further certain goals .......

Which are what?
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bazza
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Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 13:00 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Oh joy, guess who just got called in on his day off Sad


Lie back and think of the overtime...
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Tarmacsurfer
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bazza wrote:
Mister James wrote:
Oh joy, guess who just got called in on his day off Sad


Lie back and think of the overtime...


And remember to duck fast. Bits of furniture can hurt Neutral
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byke95
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PostPosted: 22:13 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am hearing the news right, that this report has sparked some kind of 'riot' at Harmondsworth today?

(something about kicking off not being allowed to watch the report news on the TV?)
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Retro-Man
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:


This does seem like double standards Mr Siggi. In the end even if they are illegal, and taking the piss, they deserve some basic human rights. And that does not include bullying and such like.


Not out of my tax paying wallet, they don't
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froggeh
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 29 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Retro-Man wrote:
froggeh wrote:


This does seem like double standards Mr Siggi. In the end even if they are illegal, and taking the piss, they deserve some basic human rights. And that does not include bullying and such like.


Not out of my tax paying wallet, they don't


Every human being, wether they are you, or the worst criminal deserves human rights. You remove that, then you might as well go and live in a country that has also removed that.

And dont forget , these people are guilty of nothing more than supposed illegal entry into a country... that's it.

and in the most part - correct me if I am wrong, they are mostly just failed asylum seekers, and actually being locked up haviing commited no crime at all.
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 00:27 - 30 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
They get food, drink, entertainment, a bed, a roof, they're not tortured and they're certainly not killed. If the immigration and justice systems work as they're supposed to, then they'll be granted asylum if needed. What more rights do they need? Prison/ detention camps aren't supposed to be nice.

If they're in this country simply in order to get a job and aren't part of the EU/ Commonwealth or similar, then they can go and sit and swivel. If they've been refused asylum, then they should get their free plane ticket back home and go.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 00:30 - 30 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
And dont forget , these people are guilty of nothing more than supposed illegal entry into a country... that's it.

and in the most part - correct me if I am wrong, they are mostly just failed asylum seekers, and actually being locked up haviing commited no crime at all.


I would imagine you could get this country's yearly quota of genuinely deserving asylum seekers in a single block of flats. The rest are just the world's bludgers, crims and assorted scum all looking for a seat on the taxpayers gravy train.

They may have human rights, but one of them is not a permanent hand in my fucking wallet.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 00:57 - 30 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6194410.stm

So, making misleading statements doesn't have any consequences at all, eh sports fans?


looks a bit heavy.

i hope it gets defused without too much violence.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 01:06 - 30 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bazza wrote:

I would imagine you could get this country's yearly quota of genuinely deserving asylum seekers in a single block of flats. The rest are just the world's bludgers, crims and assorted scum all looking for a seat on the taxpayers gravy train.


I disagree, there are enough governments around the world that need to be repressive to their people to stay in power, that there will be loads who are genuine due to their activities against their government.

However, I dont see why we allow political refugees but not economic ones.

If someone is starving in their own country but manages to get here, we can kick him out, but if he is in fear of some kind of retribution for him speaking out against his government, we let him in.

The starving guy is just as much a worthy cause.

I think we should forget worthy causes, and only take ones who are of use to us.

So number one is passing tests in ability to speak and read english, then other stuff to weed out anyone who might be a nuisance and keep ones who will be useful. A limit on how many a year would probably be good.

But as mister James has pointed out before, this kind of thing only stops the ones who want to get legal status. Loads are happy to remain illegal immigrants anyway.
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