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| CortezTheKill... |
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CortezTheKill...
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 Posted: 23:13 - 28 Nov 2006  Post subject: |
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| froggeh wrote: | I just don't see anything getting that far. In this country we can still legitimately protest at anything, priovided we don't get violent... I don't see that ever changing. |
Really? Well those protesters in London during Jintao's visit were not aggressive. They were holding Tibetan flags and booing as the cavalcade drove past. The riot police steamed in and beat them to a bloody mess. Just check the internet for verification.
| Quote: | The increased surveilance is inevitable. And it has to happen... What happens if some nutjob 'muslim' terrorists manage to detonate a nuke in the centre of Manchester.? We'll all blame the security services for NOT doing their job. |
Your opinions are really quite naive. No personal offence is meant (I don't know you personally, so I can't comment on you as a person), but that is exactly what the government want you to think. If a culture of fear is generated, with the whole country shrinking behind the defensive wall of new legislation and desperately afraid of some external or internal threat, then they government can, will and has implemented a wide range of restrictions under the guise of 'Anti-Terror Legislation'. Don't take my word for it - examine the legislation in Hansard.
| Quote: | Don't get me wrong I don't like it. But we're in the nuclear/chemical/germ warfare age, and we can't turn back the clocks. So what do they do?
I for one don't want them to go back to Dixon of Dock Green, and end up in the middle of a massacre. |
Are we in the middle of a nuclear age? Are we at risk from chemical or germ warfare? Do you know that we are for a fact? If you do, you have more knowledge than me.
And Communism is a failed system. It was facism under the guise of socialism. It was in the USSR and it is in China. Our own political system bears some startling similarities to Leninist/Stalinist Communism, it's just that it is not as extreme.
I would also point out that Lenin and Stalin managed to carry out some pretty shocking atrocities under the guise of protecting its people from external threats (USA) and internal threats (Jews). Does that sound familiar to you?
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froggeh
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Kickstart
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froggeh
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| Posted: 23:25 - 28 Nov 2006 Post subject: |
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| CortezTheKiller wrote: | Really? Well those protesters in London during Jintao's visit were not aggressive. They were holding Tibetan flags and booing as the cavalcade drove past. The riot police steamed in and beat them to a bloody mess. Just check the internet for verification.
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And there will always be injustices... And we should fight to stop them... Doesn't make it the norm
| Quote: |
Your opinions are really quite naive. No personal offence is meant (I don't know you personally, so I can't comment on you as a person), but that is exactly what the government want you to think. If a culture of fear is generated, with the whole country shrinking behind the defensive wall of new legislation and desperately afraid of some external or internal threat, then they government can, will and has implemented a wide range of restrictions under the guise of 'Anti-Terror Legislation'. Don't take my word for it - examine the legislation in Hansard.
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You see you call me naive, and I call you paranoid. Neither of us is probably spot on.
| Quote: |
Are we in the middle of a nuclear age? Are we at risk from chemical or germ warfare? Do you know that we are for a fact? If you do, you have more knowledge than me. |
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I really don't understand this... Ok no terrorists have so far managed to set off a nuclear weapon as far as I know, but we know that the basic material is available...
And yes, I believe we're at risk from chemical and germ attacks. It's so easy. In fact I'd be willing to bet that there will be one within a couple of years... Possibly Sarin as used in Tokyo, or maybe worse. the substances exist... Smallpox, Anthrax etc. |
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froggeh
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 00:13 - 29 Nov 2006 Post subject: |
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| CortezTheKiller wrote: |
Really? Well those protesters in London during Jintao's visit were not aggressive. They were holding Tibetan flags and booing as the cavalcade drove past. The riot police steamed in and beat them to a bloody mess. Just check the internet for verification.
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What the hell are you talking about?
Provide the verification please, because I remember nothing of the sort happening.
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4416574.stm
| Quote: |
Your opinions are really quite naive. No personal offence is meant (I don't know you personally, so I can't comment on you as a person), but that is exactly what the government want you to think. If a culture of fear is generated, with the whole country shrinking behind the defensive wall of new legislation and desperately afraid of some external or internal threat, then they government can, will and has implemented a wide range of restrictions under the guise of 'Anti-Terror Legislation'. Don't take my word for it - examine the legislation in Hansard.
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Once again, you make vague allusions to copious amounts of evidence, but provide none.
Not every new piece of legislation is another brick in a wall of tyranny and oppression - some of it may actually be (gasp!) a genuine attempt to deal with a new kind of threat.
Burying our collective head in the sand to appease people who THINK TEH NAZIZ IS TAEKING OVAR!"!! is not an alternative.
| Quote: |
Are we in the middle of a nuclear age? Are we at risk from chemical or germ warfare? Do you know that we are for a fact? If you do, you have more knowledge than me.
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Terrorist and state entities hostile to us have been attempting to gain such weapons (with various degrees of success) for years - that is a fact. Do you believe that had they had the resources, the 7/7 bombers would NOT have used more effective weapons?
It never fails to impress me that people can persuade themselves that they have the intellectual high ground, when in fact they have simply chosen the easy and trendy route of blaming the government for everything.
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CortezTheKill...
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| Posted: 00:26 - 29 Nov 2006 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: |
Provide the verification please, because I remember nothing of the sort happening. |
| Quote: | ITN, October 27, 1999
The Home Secretary, Jack Straw, has given his full backing to the way
police dealt with protestors during the state visit by the Chinese
President Jiang Zemin.
He was defending the position to a committee of MPs after claims that
officers were far too heavy handed with demonstrators, as ITN's Hywel
Jones reports.
There were absolutely no regrets from Jack Straw over the way police
handled the visit of the Chinese president.
Television images disturbed MPs on the Home Affairs Select Committee,
with demonstrators bundled out of sight of President Jiang Zemin - but
not away from the cameras.
One MP, Gerald Howarth, pressed Mr Straw on his PERSONAL reaction to the
pictures.
Hs asked, "were you horrified, or did you say, well that's not my
responsibility, that's an operationally issue?"
Mr Straw responded, "I didn't say either of those. My concern, as the
Commissioners concern, was to make sure that there was a proper balance
achieved between the right of demonstration, which is a very strong and
important right in our society, and the safety of the President's party
and of the Royal Family."
Yet campaigners say police put security ahead of their right to peaceful
protest.
Alison Reynolds from the Free Tibet campaign said, "What I do take
exception to is people who simply want to hold up a photograph of their
imprisoned son having their arms pulled behind them and hustled off
Tower Bridge."
The Metropolitan Police is working on its own review of the Chinese
president's visit - firmly on the agenda when the Home Secretary meets
the Commissioner, Sir Paul Condon, on Wednesday. |
My apologies. I misnamed the Head of State..it was Zemin not Jintao who visited in 1999. But I believe that is the evidence you were after.
| Quote: | Daily Telegraph 27 oct 99
POLICING of demonstrations against the Chinese President during last
week's state visit was driven by concern about Britain's trading
relations with China, backbench MPs suggested yesterday.
Before the Commons home affairs select committee, Gerald Howarth (C,
Aldershot) accused police of over-reacting to protests against Mr Jiang
Zemin. "The concern is that the pictures we saw were of perfectly
peaceful, if concerned, demonstrators waving their flags and being held
down by British police in a manner which had more to do with Tiananmen
Square than London.
"There is an appearance that this was a Foreign Office-driven issue and
with business orders at stake. Therefore it is terribly important to be
nice to the Chinese government to secure Airbus and other orders which
are forthcoming."
Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, said he would check to see if Home
Office officials had played a part in planning security arrangements.
However, Mr Straw confirmed that Foreign Office staff were involved with
the embassy and police. |
And...
| Quote: | BANGKOK POST Editorial 10-26-99
No sooner was the flag unfurled and waved in the air than five officers
of state security pounced, wrestled the bearer to the ground and forced
him into a van and out of sight. The incident, one of many to have taken
place last week, might have aroused momentary interest had it taken
place in Beijing or Minsk or Pyongyang or Kabul or Teheran. It took
place in London, home of the mother of parliaments, of modern democracy,
of the unarmed, smiling policemen so often a prop for holiday snaps.
Last week, the New Labour government of Tony Blair rolled out a red
carpet trimmed with razor wire for President Jiang Zemin of China. The
leader of the world's largest communist country was on a state visit to
what had been an imperialist power and nothing, absolutely nothing,
could be allowed to go wrong.
Absolutely nothing went wrong, according to its organisers in a
government which has proclaimed a foreign policy in which Britain will
elevate the cause of human rights and let offending governments know all
about it. Relations between Britain and China are, as a result of the
visit, a lot warmer than at any time since the end of the Hong Kong saga
in 1997. Mr Jiang and his entourage signed a sheaf of accords and
contracts and a lot of nice things were said. All in all, everybody
concerned had a very pleasant time even though the visit offered the
strange prospect of a communist leader exchanging niceties with Queen
Elizabeth and enjoying the odd flute of vintage Champagne.
Role reversal was not confined to those who featured on the itinerary
for the visit. Nearby, in the sprawling oases that are the public parks
of the British capital, protesters gathered to show their displeasure at
China's frightful record in such areas as Tibet and the treatment of its
own people. As Mr Jiang was travelling down the Mall, a ribbon of
bitumen between two public parks, on his way to visit the queen at
Buckingham Palace, the British security apparatus went into action on
sighting the flag of Tibet or a banner suggesting the human rights
record of China might stink.
Less than a mile from the Mall is Speakers' Corner, the tiny area of
Hyde Park that will be familiar to Thais who realise the value of free
speech. It is at Speakers' Corner that anyone can mount any sort of
platform and say anything. Speakers espouse views from the loony left to
the rabid right, they say they are god and the devil, they champion
white racism and coloured racism, they push lunatic programmes and
conspiracy theories. Some even talk sense. They fly the flags of their
cause and state their aims on posters pasted to their platforms. There
is always a large police presence at Speakers' Corner because the views
expressed there are not always guided by reason. Often, the police are
needed to protect the right of the speaker to express a view, no matter
how horrible, from an affronted member of the audience.
To make sure that Mr Jiang's visit passed off without untoward incident,
such as the expression of an opinion, the government told the police to
apply liberally an obscure law that prohibits the unfurling of a flag or
a banner in a public park. The government also felt it best that the
queen and the communist ride together in a covered, horse-drawn coach
lest someone shout something.
At a stroke, the British government has compromised its claims to an
ethical foreign policy and has shown it attaches more importance to
business deals than to a tradition of tolerance and freedom of
expression that has long been admired throughout the world. If the
British authorities had wanted to make Mr Jiang feel as though he were
at home, they could not have tried harder.
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| Posted: 08:40 - 29 Nov 2006 Post subject: |
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| CortezTheKiller wrote: | But you didn't answer the question. Did you see the news footage broadcast at the time?
You can believe entirely what you like, even if it means swallowing the propaganda. People will always seek to defend the status quo because they are scared of the reality.
If you are really the kind of functionalist person that believes the government are there to look after you then good on you mate.
You kind of missed the point..as I said it is not the degree of violence of the police that is important (and if you saw the footage, which I suspect you didn't, then you will know they were heavy-handed to the point of brutality)- it is the fact that they were NOT ALLOWED to protest that REALLY matters.
But you will never see that because you don't want your views to be challenged. |
No, I understand your point, I just think it's superceded by the fact that you thought it acceptable to elaborate the story to the point of lying through your teeth, because you felt that pretending people had been beaten to a bleeding mess sounded better.
How are you any better than the government you accuse of lying?
The degree to which things happen is always relevant, especially as in this case it charts the degree to which you are prepared to tell porkies to support your position.
Yes I did see the footage at the time, and no, it didn't really bother me that much. That doesn't mean I'm blind or politically naive, it simply means I have a different opinion on the subject than you. Last time I checked, that was perfectly legal.
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| CortezTheKill... |
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CortezTheKill...
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| Posted: 19:22 - 29 Nov 2006 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: | | CortezTheKiller wrote: | But you didn't answer the question. Did you see the news footage broadcast at the time?
You can believe entirely what you like, even if it means swallowing the propaganda. People will always seek to defend the status quo because they are scared of the reality.
If you are really the kind of functionalist person that believes the government are there to look after you then good on you mate.
You kind of missed the point..as I said it is not the degree of violence of the police that is important (and if you saw the footage, which I suspect you didn't, then you will know they were heavy-handed to the point of brutality)- it is the fact that they were NOT ALLOWED to protest that REALLY matters.
But you will never see that because you don't want your views to be challenged. |
No, I understand your point, I just think it's superceded by the fact that you thought it acceptable to elaborate the story to the point of lying through your teeth, because you felt that pretending people had been beaten to a bleeding mess sounded better.
How are you any better than the government you accuse of lying?
The degree to which things happen is always relevant, especially as in this case it charts the degree to which you are prepared to tell porkies to support your position.
Yes I did see the footage at the time, and no, it didn't really bother me that much. That doesn't mean I'm blind or politically naive, it simply means I have a different opinion on the subject than you. Last time I checked, that was perfectly legal. |
As I understand it, you are thinking of joining the police force. I understand that you are overly-sympathetic towards your would-be employers.
You have chosen to focus in on what you believe to be an inaccuracy whilst completely ignoring the main point about freedoms in this country. But given the mindset of a person thinking of joining or about to join the very agency of state that is being commented on currently it is not so surprising that you take this view. The status quo must be upheld at all costs.
If you really did see those pictures in 1999, then you will have seen the truncheons flying. If you did not see anything to disturb you then I'd have to question whether or not you really saw them or are simply saying that you saw them. They are, sadly, not available on the internet or at least I cannot find them despite a great deal of searching. I don't need to exaggerate the degree of brutality - it happened.
But again, the issue is that of believing that in this country we are free to protest peacefully, which is a claim made by Froggeh originally.
Even if you choose to overlook certain aspects of the amount of force used, do you really believe that preventing a peaceful protest to avoid embarrassment to the government is something that should be tolerated in a supposedly free and democratic society?
Now are you prepared to answer that question directly, or will you seek to sidetrack the issue once again?
Either way, I'm done.
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craigie b
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| Posted: 19:27 - 29 Nov 2006 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | do you really believe that preventing a peaceful protest to avoid embarrassment to the government is something that should be tolerated in a supposedly free and democratic society? |
| Quote: | n the shadow of Winston Churchill's statue opposite the House of Commons, a rather odd ritual has developed on Sunday afternoons. A small group of people - mostly young and dressed outlandishly - hold a tea party on the grass of Parliament Square. A woman looking very much like Mary Poppins passes plates of frosted cakes and cookies, while other members of the party flourish blank placards or, as they did on the afternoon I was there, attempt a game of cricket.
Sometimes the police move in and arrest the picnickers, but on this occasion the officers stood at a distance, presumably consulting on the question of whether this was a demonstration or a non-demonstration. It is all rather silly and yet in Blair's Britain there is a kind of nobility in the amateurishness and persistence of the gesture. This collection of oddballs, looking for all the world as if they had stepped out of the Michelangelo Antonioni film Blow-Up, are challenging a new law which says that no one may demonstrate within a kilometre, or a little more than half a mile, of Parliament Square if they have not first acquired written permission from the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. This effectively places the entire centre of British government, Whitehall and Trafalgar Square, off-limits to the protesters and marchers who have traditionally brought their grievances to those in power without ever having to ask a policeman's permission. |
https://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1129827.ece
Yay for democracy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 14:27 - 30 Nov 2006 Post subject: |
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https://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1957831,00.html
Police are to demand new powers to arrest protesters for causing offence through the words they chant and the slogans on their placards and even headbands.
Right witch hunt and burning of xians ! , I'm highly offended by xians preaching against me , who in turn are offended by my views
lets burn everybody , kinda of like how Labourites can insult tories but tories can't do the same back
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 17 years, 153 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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