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Itchy
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PostPosted: 22:29 - 05 Feb 2007    Post subject: US style laws UK?. Reply with quote
Devils advocate thread

I watched the end of Tonight's Panorama , which was titled 'should we fight back?' odd because I don't watch much TV and it left me feeling kind of angry that good samaritans and people
who fought back in self defence were often the ones arrested rather than the antagonist in such a situation.

And at the end that society will only get worse as the victims are afraid to defend themselves thus giving chavs a free rein to do what they want.

So should we move to a US system where when life is threatened lethal force can be applied?.



Chavs are non useful to society.

a Chav tried to steal my bike I ran away barely escaping with my bike and life..

Would turn into

->Mcgee type thread, Chavs tried to pull me off my bike I gave them a couple bursts from my MP5.
they ran away but managed a quick U turn to follow him down an alley way and I managed 3 head
shots before he stopped twitching.


Crime has no consequences for the anatgonist and therefore society will just get worse if nothing
is done about it , and all these regeneration schemes have done is give chavs better lives at the
expense of working people.

Any thoughts?
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 05 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Not sure. But maybe a legalised concealed carry law could be brought in (except anyone with a criminal record for theft / assault). Might make some think harder about mugging, if little old Mrs Miggins might be packing.

All the best

Keith
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california_rookie
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 05 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy, some of your statements aren't quite accurate. Especially the one about lethal force. We've got alot of the same problems, where the person who defends themselves gets charged and the aggressor goes free.

In actuality, the only time when lethal force can be applied is when someone enters one's house unlawfully and the occupant feels their life is threatened. And even then the incident is investigated fully and charges can still be brought against the homeowner/occupant.

And I don't believe many states still allow you to carry a concealed weapon, even with a permit, anymore. I think it's still legal in Texas, though.

My personal feeling on the matter is that if someone initiates a situation with another person in which that other person in forced to physically defend themselves then the aggressor most likely gets what's coming to them. Within reason.
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SoND
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PostPosted: 06:35 - 06 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Not sure. But maybe a legalised concealed carry law could be brought in (except anyone with a criminal record for theft / assault). Might make some think harder about mugging, if little old Mrs Miggins might be packing.

All the best

Keith


Guns don't help. If guns are legalised like this then people will start to think it's acceptable to carry a weapon 'just incase'. Let people defend themselves by whatever is neccessary but a concealed weapon isn't going the right way about it.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 09:02 - 06 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
california_rookie wrote:
Itchy, some of your statements aren't quite accurate. Especially the one about lethal force. We've got alot of the same problems, where the person who defends themselves gets charged and the aggressor goes free.

In actuality, the only time when lethal force can be applied is when someone enters one's house unlawfully and the occupant feels their life is threatened. And even then the incident is investigated fully and charges can still be brought against the homeowner/occupant.

.


yeah I know its when life is threatened cops can shoot ie they think they see a gun or a hero sandwich, there has been some silly US case law where a man was running at a man with a gun with a knife and etc.

But I can't see any other solution , a chav will attack you kill you and not get sent to prison , hell there was a gang in wigan who beat a shop keeper to death , they got a couple years in juvie and will be released in a year or two.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 09:04 - 06 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
SoND wrote:


Guns don't help. If guns are legalised like this then people will start to think it's acceptable to carry a weapon 'just incase'. Let people defend themselves by whatever is neccessary but a concealed weapon isn't going the right way about it.


but people already carry weapons for self defence, my dad a few years ago used to carry around a cricket bat/hockey stick , a set of pads and some stumps and a ball , all his mates did too and would agree if they were stopped by cops they'd back each other up , my dad doesn't live there anymore and thus does not carry.

it saved one of his mate's lives when he was jumped by a couple of chavs , without it he;s be dead ,
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 09:17 - 06 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
SoND wrote:
Guns don't help. If guns are legalised like this then people will start to think it's acceptable to carry a weapon 'just incase'. Let people defend themselves by whatever is neccessary but a concealed weapon isn't going the right way about it.


As long as they are not using it for offence then I have no issue with it. And the ones who want to use it offensively are probably already carrying one.

All the best

Keith
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Mary Jane
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 06 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
california_rookie wrote:
to carry a concealed weapon, even with a permit, anymore. I think it's still legal in Texas, though.



That's a bit naieve. Most states have in fact increased the allowance of conceal/carry permits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rtc.gif

In order to obtain one, you have to go through a fairly rigorous training, psychological evaluation, and background check.

In my state, they created a law which prohibits people from carrying a weapon in public buildings, like churches or office buildings, even with a CCP.

And self-defense is still a valid defense if you kill someone who is attacking you. Not just on in your home, but if they attck you in the street, or are assaulting you physically or even sexually. It's nice to know that if I'm in danger of being raped, I can use whatever force I deem necessary to defend myself.

I don't and wont ever own a gun, but it's still within each citizen's rights to have one if they choose.
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Flip
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PostPosted: 01:01 - 07 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mary Jane wrote:
In order to obtain one, you have to go through a fairly rigorous training, psychological evaluation, and background check.

In my state, they created a law which prohibits people from carrying a weapon in public buildings...


FFS.

*Cancels the emergration*
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Mary Jane
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 07 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
flip wrote:
Mary Jane wrote:
In order to obtain one, you have to go through a fairly rigorous training, psychological evaluation, and background check.

In my state, they created a law which prohibits people from carrying a weapon in public buildings...


FFS.

*Cancels the emergration*


Smile where've you been hiding?


They give permits to nutjob right wing whackos... why not you?
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california_rookie
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PostPosted: 19:16 - 08 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mary Jane wrote:
Most states have in fact increased the allowance of conceal/carry permits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rtc.gif

In order to obtain one, you have to go through a fairly rigorous training, psychological evaluation, and background check.


Wow. I had no idea. Last I'd heard there weren't many states allowing concealed carry and I'd just assumed that the number of states allowing it would be decreasing, not increasing! Needless to say, in the future, I'll be taking care to check that my comments are correct before I state them as fact.
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 19:10 - 10 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm over in the States at the moment, and the atmosphere in Florida is so much friendlier that I'm not sure you can make direct comparisons with the UK. The whole way of life down here seems to be far more open and pleasant than anywhere I have lived in the UK recently. Perhaps it's the sun, the cheap food, the open space or the cool cars that chill everyone out, but I feel far safer walking around this area that I don't know, than I do walking around in Harrow where I have spent 15 years!

Florida is one of the states that allows concealed-carry, so perhaps everyone is smiling at me because they think my gut is hiding a 10mm Sig-Sauer?
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 01:08 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guns are for macho pricks.
The US is a prime example of why we should never allow them.
The number of gun deaths is ludicrous.

More guns= more deaths.

I hate them with a passion.
I almost disowned my brother when he was in a gun club (for various reasons)

But if someone broke into my house I would try my utmost to kill them. I have a GF and child in there, I will NEVER allow them to be compromised. End of.

So in summary... I agree with you Itchy.
Some chav tries to take my key at the lights, I should be able to break all the bones in his body, and then get a medal for it, not jail.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 01:14 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
Guns are for macho pricks.
The US is a prime example of why we should never allow them.
The number of gun deaths is ludicrous.


Not really. Check Switzerland. Think there gun ownership levels are higher than the US. Hardly murder central. Canada also has high gun ownership levels without the US murder rate.

It isn't the guns that worry me. It is who manages to have them. Make it a crime to have one and then it is pretty much only criminals who will have the use of them.

All the best

Keith
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 01:28 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
froggeh wrote:
Guns are for macho pricks.
The US is a prime example of why we should never allow them.
The number of gun deaths is ludicrous.


Not really. Check Switzerland. Think there gun ownership levels are higher than the US. Hardly murder central. Canada also has high gun ownership levels without the US murder rate.

It isn't the guns that worry me. It is who manages to have them. Make it a crime to have one and then it is pretty much only criminals who will have the use of them.


Sounds good to me. Makes it far easier to control

You cannot compare Switzerland or canada to the US...
less than 8/33 million against 300 million/small towns v sprawling cities.

A quick look on google for gun deaths...
Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)
Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -
Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -
England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)
Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)


Notice how low our figures are (ok it may have changed since 1999 but...)

Even your utopia of Switzerland is more than 4 times the number of deaths, the US is off the scale.

Carrying guns is for macho pricks. End of.
I would personally double the current 5 year sentence for carrying.

Makes sense to me that if you have a gun you're a criminal, or a soldier. (or an armed response copper)

Last edited by froggeh on 09:40 - 13 Feb 2007; edited 1 time in total
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 01:37 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
Sounds good to me. Makes it far easier to control


Not really. Gun crime has gone up rapidly since they became more controlled. Maybe not caused by the ban, but it doesn't seem to help at all.

froggeh wrote:
You cannot compare Switzerland or canada to the US...
less than 8/33 million against 300 million/small towns v sprawling cities.


You have totally missed the point. Point is that gun ownership levels are high in both places. Gun murder rates (as you have pointed out with your figures) are dramatically different. The number of guns is seemingly pretty irrelevant. Seems more likely that the issue is how the population view guns and who have them.

froggeh wrote:
Guns are for macho pricks. End of.
I would personally double the current 5 year sentence for carrying.


Your opinion, but I think it is an incredibly blinkered view. Maybe your views will change when your wish to partake in an activity while harming nobody is curtailed just because someone thinks you might.

froggeh wrote:
Makes sense to me that if you have a gun you're a criminal, or a soldier. (or an armed response copper)


Or a farmer. Or a hunter. Or a sportsman.

All the best

Keith
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 01:46 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

Or a farmer. Or a hunter. Or a sportsman.


I would quite happily ban those people from owning guns.

Farmers don't need guns.
People who kill animals for fun I wouldn't piss on if on fire.
I would 100% happily see no UK entry in so called sports gun shooting events


Like I said guns are for macho pricks (excepting the army, and armed cops)

And I didnt miss your point. You have a sparsely populated country, and it makes less difference.
You have a tightly packed country like us, then I shudder to think about all the 'accidents' that will happen.

I would rather live on Mars on my own, than in a country as tightly populated as the UK, where people are allowed guns.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 12:06 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:
I would quite happily ban those people from owning guns.


I am very glad you are not running the country. Seems that anything you do not understand and may remotely cause harm you would ban.

Farmers don't need guns.

froggeh wrote:
And I didnt miss your point. You have a sparsely populated country, and it makes less difference.
You have a tightly packed country like us, then I shudder to think about all the 'accidents' that will happen.


See you have managed to ignore, for example, the Netherlands which has a lower murder rate than the UK and a higher population density, and where ownership is easier than the UK.

Not sure how you are going to cope in Sweden where gun laws are far more lax than the UK.

All the best

Keith
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Dan 4RR
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
froggeh wrote:

People who kill animals for fun
Isn't that how you got your user title?



Quote:
Farmers don't need guns.
You ever lived on a farm. Or know anyone who does. I think most farmers have one to fend of foxes. Just like my uncle who had 30 chickens massacred because off a fox. Bastards!!!
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 15:30 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh the Irony ! , I do actually remember seeing Charlie's Photos of his summer of love in Sweden (he knobbled a girlie called Milla) and was taken aback that there was always a gun in all the indoor photos.

infact I'm wondering how that guy is doing these days, not seen him since '02.

I better scrub your name off the Clay shooting day then,
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california_rookie
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thumbs Up to you, Kieth. The opinions you express are the very principals on which my 'fine' country was founded.

While I will agree that if guns were completely illegal, save law enforcement and the military, that there would be far fewer homicides involving firearms, it would stand against our fundamental belief that the actions of the few should not damn the many.

Plus, I think guns are keen! Wink
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
froggeh wrote:
I would quite happily ban those people from owning guns.


I am very glad you are not running the country. Seems that anything you do not understand and may remotely cause harm you would ban.

No.
Absolutely not.
I think we need far fewer laws.
Guns are probably the only thing I feel so strongly against.
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
california_rookie wrote:
Thumbs Up to you, Kieth. The opinions you express are the very principals on which my 'fine' country was founded.

While I will agree that if guns were completely illegal, save law enforcement and the military, that there would be far fewer homicides involving firearms, it would stand against our fundamental belief that the actions of the few should not damn the many.

Plus, I think guns are keen! Wink


Fine country LOL!
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

So why are you so strongly against them? Sure they can be used to kill people. So can plenty of the contents of the average kitchen.

All the best

Keith
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 11 Feb 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dan 4RR wrote:
froggeh wrote:

People who kill animals for fun
Isn't that how you got your user title?



Quote:
Farmers don't need guns.
You ever lived on a farm. Or know anyone who does. I think most farmers have one to fend of foxes. Just like my uncle who had 30 chickens massacred because off a fox. Bastards!!!


Not sure what you mean by the first bit? Care to ellaborate?

The foxes have as much right to the land as the farmers.
You want to protect the chickens, then get better enclosures.
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