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Kris
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 Posted: 10:00 - 14 Nov 2007  Post subject: Re: How to create an Angry American |
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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Kris
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| Posted: 12:06 - 14 Nov 2007 Post subject: |
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Don't worry Hetzer, he probably doesn't even realise how close America came to becoming Nazi ruled.
Smedley Butler stopped them back then. Who's stopping them now?
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| california_rookie |
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california_rookie
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| Posted: 02:32 - 15 Nov 2007 Post subject: |
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I don't assume a damned thing. I've watched plenty of conspiracy videos and read pages and pages of lunatic bullshit over the past couple years, as I would rather know the truth about what's going on in the world around me than believe a bunch of supposed lies just to feel better about myself. I just happen to disagree with everything I've ever seen or heard from those conspiracy-loving nutjobs. Mind you, if I ever see any, and I mean ANY, concrete evidence to the contrary, I'll be the first one taking a shit on the whitehouse lawn. I just doubt that'll ever happen.
As I said, I really would like to believe all this conspiratorial gobbledygook, as it would finally give me a way to externalize all the unpleasant feelings that I otherwise actually have to deal with internally, as opposed to getting high every half hour and ranting about Bush whenever I can't get a hold of my dealer. Unfortunately for me, we can't all be know-it-all college students spending dear old dad's hard earned cash on half-ounces of chronic and XL pizzas. I suppose.
And I actually haven't heard of a couple of the "alleged" incidents you've listed, Kris. I'll have to have a look on the ol' intarweb for some more information on the subjects. As for the link you did post, that seems about par for the course in those times. Call me a mindless twit if you want, because honestly I'll probably never be called such again and it's quite a novelty, I still believe that said scientists would never have unleashed something they knew to be deadly on an unsuspecting and completely innocent public. People have consciences, you know. Yes, even Americans. ignorance was all the rage those days, especially regarding the fledgling biological sciences, so I find it entirely feasible that they just didn't know the extent of the damage they might have caused. This is regards to the incidents on the subway, at sea and at Fort Detrick.
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Itchy
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| fire |
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fire
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| Posted: 01:15 - 20 Nov 2007 Post subject: Re: How to create an Angry American |
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| colin1 |
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colin1
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Skudd
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Hetzer
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 16:35 - 21 Nov 2007 Post subject: Re: How to create an Angry American |
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| california_rookie wrote: | It's absurdly easy to catch someone, especially a politician, with their foot in their mouth. |
Definatly agree with you there. Even easier when the politician in question is really just a figurehead.
| california_rookie wrote: | That being the case, and given the choice, I'd much rather have my country being run as a business, even if the ones running said business are a little shady. |
Trouble is that while a country can be run as a business it is a big problem for those who live there are are just treated as employees of a sweat shop.
| california_rookie wrote: | The US were attacked by terrorists. We attacked back. |
The US had supported terrorists in the past (both directly as a gorvernment and also as individuals). Distinction between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is largly down to whether you sympathise with their point of view.
| california_rookie wrote: | Iraq, among other places, surfaced as a safe harbor for the terrorists. |
Far from the truth. Iraq was not a safe harbour for terrorists. Pretty much hated them as much as they hated the USA and no evidence at all of them supporting terrorism.
| california_rookie wrote: | Iraq also had the capacity to attack us with weapons of mass destruction. We removed the possibility of that happening. |
A suspected capacity. Not removed because it seems that in reality it never existed.
| california_rookie wrote: | Now, we are left to clean up the mess. A much bigger mess than we anticipated. |
Agreed. And I think that having screwed the country up both the UK and the USA have a duty to go a hell of a long way to sorting it out, whatever the costs and time scales.
| california_rookie wrote: | Who defends their country by blowing up three times more* of their own citizens than those that they're defending it from? |
Lots of organisations. Civilian casualties are often of no great consequence.
All the best
Keith
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| california_rookie |
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california_rookie
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| Posted: 03:34 - 24 Nov 2007 Post subject: |
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| Kickstart wrote: | Trouble is that while a country can be run as a business it is a big problem for those who live there are are just treated as employees of a sweat shop.
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While I can't speak for everyone, and things are far from perfect, I can say that I'm definitely being treated a fair bit better than a 'sweatshop employee'.
| Kickstart wrote: | The US had supported terrorists in the past (both directly as a gorvernment and also as individuals). Distinction between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is largly down to whether you sympathise with their point of view. |
While I agree with your point, the fact is none of them had ever attacked us in such a forceful and public way, before.
| Kickstart wrote: | (with regards to Iraq being a 'safe harbor' for terrorists)
Far from the truth. Iraq was not a safe harbour for terrorists. Pretty much hated them as much as they hated the USA and no evidence at all of them supporting terrorism. |
From what I understand, following our activities in Afghanistan, terrorists have spread across the majority of the middle-east, including Iraq. And if there were/are no terrorists in Iraq, who exactly were/are we fighting over there?
| Kickstart wrote: | (regarding the possibility of Iraq possessing nuclear arms)
A suspected capacity. Not removed because it seems that in reality it never existed. |
Obviously that's a point of contention. However, it's my opinion that Iraq did have WMD's within their borders and were forced to either dismantle or destroy them rather than allow them to be found by the United Nations. It's not as if they didn't have plenty of advanced notice.
And as for us having "screwed up" Iraq, I would argue it was plenty fucked before we got there. We have, however, thrown our proverbial hat in the ring by removing their elected leader and therefor must make good on as many of the promises we've made as possible. My fading hope is that it'll be a better place for our having been there. It's just really hard to guage our progress from this end as all information on the subject is either filtered by the liberal or conservative medias and I lack the intelligence to discern the majority of the truth for myself.
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| craigie b |
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craigie b
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| Posted: 09:27 - 24 Nov 2007 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | From what I understand, following our activities in Afghanistan, terrorists have spread across the majority of the middle-east, including Iraq. And if there were/are no terrorists in Iraq, who exactly were/are we fighting over there? |
You think the fighters simply did not exist before Afghanistan? Iraq is suffering sectarian violence with extremists using it a good proving ground. Iran is fighting a proxy war on both fronts, Iraq and Afghanistan. This is fact as UK troops are finding unexploded Iranian munitions daily.
There are terrorists, civil war and people who simply do not want the west in their countries. To brand them all terrorists is over simplistic.
| Quote: | Obviously that's a point of contention. However, it's my opinion that Iraq did have WMD's within their borders and were forced to either dismantle or destroy them rather than allow them to be found by the United Nations. |
Its not a point of contention. None were found. No evidence was credible. And given Irans hatred of Iraq, it makes sense for Saddam to posture aggressively. He had to act defiant to stop Iran from invading and roject power in the middle east. Saddam was in a no win situation. Admit no military power and risk losing Iraq (because would the US really run to saddams aid a SECOND time?), or try to act just defiant enough so US policy makers would leave him alone?
Saddam's card was marked by the Bush admin regardless of his military might.
| Quote: | I would argue it was plenty fucked before we got there |
It was, however Saddam kept the lid on the sectarian violence. US generals have even been quoted stating they think Saddam actually did a good job in preventing the sectarian violence.
| Quote: | We have, however, thrown our proverbial hat in the ring by removing their elected leader |
Saddam was never elected 
| Quote: | My fading hope is that it'll be a better place for our having been there. |
I think this is doubtful. Iraq is a bubbling cesspit of civil infighting, terrorists, Iran etc. You've became just another party to hate and I think the US will leave as they did in Vietnam.
I think the problem stems from the US government policies never really understanding the cultures they are dealing with, so the people they think they are helping resent the US. |
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 14:09 - 24 Nov 2007 Post subject: |
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| california_rookie wrote: | While I agree with your point, the fact is none of them had ever attacked us in such a forceful and public way, before. |
Quite true. Point was that terrorists that the USA had supported had attacked other people in murderous ways. Hence from a lot of areas rather less sympathy than you would otherwise expect. Others had been expected to just put up with it.
| california_rookie wrote: | From what I understand, following our activities in Afghanistan, terrorists have spread across the majority of the middle-east, including Iraq. And if there were/are no terrorists in Iraq, who exactly were/are we fighting over there? |
Err, they are there because of the invasion. They were not operating there before the invasion and so using them as an excuse for the invasion is not really realistic.
Remember that Afghanistan claimed it was prepared to talk about handing of Bin Laden but wanted some evidence first. Hardly an unreasonable act, and something any country would want before extradition.
| Kickstart wrote: | However, it's my opinion that Iraq did have WMD's within their borders and were forced to either dismantle or destroy them rather than allow them to be found by the United Nations. It's not as if they didn't have plenty of advanced notice. |
If destroyed then hardly a problem. If they had then then they could easily have used them. Saddam was certainly a nasty enough piece of work to have used any and every means at his disposal.
| california_rookie wrote: | And as for us having "screwed up" Iraq, I would argue it was plenty fucked before we got there. |
Yes, screwed up but stable. Now screwed up and unstable.
Half the problem in the region at the moment is from hardline reactions to past western interference. For example Iran where the religeous zealots got into power after a revolution against a dictatorship supported by the west.
All the best
Keith
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Shay HTFC
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BadToTheBone
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california_rookie
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| Posted: 21:13 - 01 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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| Kickstart wrote: | Remember that Afghanistan claimed it was prepared to talk about handing of Bin Laden but wanted some evidence first. Hardly an unreasonable act, and something any country would want before extradition.
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I believe there was plenty of evidence, even in hindsight. There was video of the man confessing to the crime, and several of the men involved in the actual hijacking of the planes were known operatives of his. Again, this comes from the US gov't, so it can be argued that it's all part of a big coverup and blah, blah, blah but, we already know I don't buy into that crap.
| Kickstart wrote: | If they had them (WMD's) then they could easily have used them. Saddam was certainly a nasty enough piece of work to have used any and every means at his disposal.
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If I were Saddam, fearing that I would immediately be ousted from power following any direct attack on the US, I would have kept my finger off the "alleged" big red button. I seriously doubt he could have forseen the way things ended up for him, and as such believe that his not using any rumored WMD's was an act of self-preservation. That being said, the possibility exists, even if he was crazy enough to use said weapons on the US or other Western nations, that they were not yet at the deployable stage in development. Albeit, that is just one of the many possible reasons that they were unable to be deployed, even if they had existed.
| Kickstart wrote: | Yes, screwed up but stable. Now screwed up and unstable.
Half the problem in the region at the moment is from hardline reactions to past western interference. For example Iran where the religeous zealots got into power after a revolution against a dictatorship supported by the west.
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While you do raise a very interesting and accurate side-point, I disagree that Iraq was stable before we got there. If by 'stable' you mean 'not our problem', then yes. However, once we decided that we wanted to clean up their comparatively modest mess, the problem not only escalated, but gained the attention of the international media for the first time, which of course made it seem as if it was all just happening for the first time. Obviously you won't find me arguing that we didn't make it worse but, who's to say how Iraq's problems would have progressed had we not interveined.
And craigie, read my previous posts before you go aguing against me on a point on which we agree, stop expressing your opinions as fact, and make sure you know what you're talking about before you go off spouting bullshit like Saddam wasn't Iraq's elected leader.
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 00:44 - 02 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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| california_rookie wrote: | I believe there was plenty of evidence, even in hindsight. There was video of the man confessing to the crime, and several of the men involved in the actual hijacking of the planes were known operatives of his. Again, this comes from the US gov't, so it can be argued that it's all part of a big coverup and blah, blah, blah but, we already know I don't buy into that crap. |
And from memory they were demanding him to be handed over and threatening consequences long before these became common knowledge
| california_rookie wrote: | If I were Saddam, fearing that I would immediately be ousted from power following any direct attack on the US, I would have kept my finger off the "alleged" big red button. |
Given the choices of a mad leader who had already used gas on his own people choosing not to use it against invaders just in case it made things worse for him, and the other option that the same mad leader just didn't have any to use I am afraid the 2nd option wins hands down. Especially with no evidence of their existence found since, nor any use of them by any of the nutters now trying to cause a civil war.
| california_rookie wrote: | However, once we decided that we wanted to clean up their comparatively modest mess, the problem not only escalated, but gained the attention of the international media for the first time, which of course made it seem as if it was all just happening for the first time. Obviously you won't find me arguing that we didn't make it worse but, who's to say how Iraq's problems would have progressed had we not interveined. |
There was plenty of international media attention in the area (well, certainly in the UK, can't comment on the US).
Saddam was certainly a nasty piece of work. Quite possible that in keeping a lid on things he had allowed them to simmer and get worse. But much of his power base was cemented with support from us when he went to war with Iran, Iran being unpopular as they had deposed a dictator who we supported.
Is there a right and wrong? Not really. We have certainly greatly contributed to the current mess. Would it have been a mess otherwise? Quite probably, or might have happened sooner and died out sooner. Unfortunatly intervention has just provided a good recruiting ground for those who want to extend the conflict out of the region.
Suspect we have rather more to worry about with Saudi. Currently run by a regime sympathetic to the west but with a general population with fairly different views.
All the best
Keith
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| Mac_Black |
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Mac_Black
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| Posted: 02:11 - 12 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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| ColdInsomnia wrote: |
Indeed. I'm starting to get a sneaky suspicion that we have our own string pullers who's goals are no better than the evil bastards behind the Bush admin. David Kelly, 7/7, Saudi Arabia's links to Britain, it all stinks of foul play.
I'd like to say that in 20 years time I'd run for Prime-Minister and sort this country out once and for all. But in all honesty, I'd fear for my life. I wouldn't be surprised at all if anyone who stands up for decency and common sense nowadays (including what true democracy is, not this half-hearted shit they shove down our throats) was found very similar to Dr Kelly.
The western world as a whole is going the wrong way, and if we don't change it soon it may be too late. |
I tell you what then I'll take tha plunge... 
I wanna be in tha Royal Marines Commando's and be an elite soldier and ride faster and faster bikes and have a life with my girl  ... But being surrounded by people who share tha same common hatred of our goverment makes me want to risk all that I have and all my hopes and dreams.
I AM for gangs on tha streets becuase yes some of them are twats, I know gangs, I know of gangs and even though they ain't society friendly they are a way to live without being ripped off by goverments (A very edgy way that is)... but I realise everybody else here hates gangs and they haven't got anything to do with what I'm trying to say so I'll stop talking bullshit now becuase I'm confusing myself .
So I'll risk looking like Mr. Kelly by...
Starting an internet led revoloution against tha british goverment  ... Lets spread tha word across tha whole forum and then inject other british forums with tha talk and it will spread like a virus:
If everybody in tha uk commits some sort of crime then it will be on tha news that there is an upsurge in random crime, then wave after wave of british forum members will see this as a signal to commit even more random pointless crimes, if enogh people took this seriously tha police would be overstretched and rendered powerless...
By now 'A national uproar' would be all over tha news, and regular people would get tha message and take to tha streets, then tha military would be called in to police tha state as riots break out nation wide.
Some of tha troops who have realised that they do not believe in fighting against their own people will cut loose, military small arms will flood into criminal and underground parties, and an organisation will be forged to destroy tha goverment...
A state of emergency would be declared as clashes broke out, civilians would now be armed and tha goverment would be shattered as for a short period (a few years) britian remains in a state of civic chaos...
who knows what would happen after that... who cares... It looks like alot more fun than being told what I can and cannot do 
Before any body tries to detain me under tha 'Terrorism' act for this foolishly blatant post... FUCK YOU, it's called freedom of speach and I've been using it sucsessfully to blindly insult coppers for tha past 4 years... Try and detain me there will be trouble and its a forum anyway I have only written a template for Civil War that should be used when our peoples finally decide to have a riot...
This is not inciting terrorism, it ain't treason and it's not breaking tha law... quite simply becuase I DO NOT LIVE BY YOUR LAWS BRITISH GOVERMENT, I NEVER EVEN AGREED TO THEM IN THA FIRST PLACE SO I DO NOT RECOGNISE YOUR AUTHORITY:
TRY TO AREST ME... BLOOD WILL BE SPILT.
TRY TO CHARGE ME... FEDS WILL FALL.
TRY TO PROSECUTE ME... I'LL RIP THA JUDGE'S BALLS OFF AND TRY TO ESCAPE, TAKING OUT ANYONE IN MY WAY.
IF YOU DO LOCK ME UP... I'LL BEAT ON YOUR PRISON GUARDS TILL THEY BEAST ME WITH STICKS, THEN I'LL BEAT THEM AGAIN AND THA SAME CYCLE WILL GO ON UNTIL I'M HARD AS NAILS AND A COMPLETE MOTHERFUCKING DELUDED HEADCASE. |
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| ColdInsomnia |
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ColdInsomnia
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| Posted: 02:55 - 12 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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| Mac_Kaliba wrote: | By now 'A national uproar' would be all over tha news, and regular people would get tha message and take to tha streets, then tha military would be called in to police tha state as riots break out nation wide. |
Yeah, you wish. The BBC would report it as a terrorist uprising, anyone who attempted it would quickly be detained / shot, and the average dullard sat in front of their TV would switch the channel because Eastenders is about to start.
And you seem to be a little confused as to how difficult the police and army would find it to control civilians.
They have lots and lots and lots of guns, with highly trained people using them.
The average civilian can't hold anything more than a miniature knife without being arrested.
Our only chance, should things ever fall into a situation like this, is to hope and pray that the police and army remember that their loyalty is to us, the citizens, and not facist governments. If they were to realise that, then a corrupt government would topple within a few days (I'd like to see Mr Brown attempt to defend Westminster with his tie).
It's like in America... all military forces are sworn to uphold the constitution first, and the president second. It's a failsafe to ensure that a government can never use a countrie's military against it's own citizens. Of course, that means less and less nowadays (look at the state of the US constitution).
Interestingly enough, once the EU police force arrives in Britain, then yes, it's pretty much game over. The government (read: EU) will have total control of a police force with zero loyalty to us. Now that is a truly terrifying scenario.
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| Mac_Black |
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Mac_Black
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| Posted: 03:46 - 12 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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Yeh lol I do wish...
I do realise that too many people in this country would not have tha courage to take a stand, which Is why if there were to be any action from tha public it would have to be arranged through tha internet... It would give people tha confidence to see it through safe in tha knowledge that it would be widespread... like organising a ridout if you will (actually I would'nt know about that but sounds like a good example).
I know my plan is lacking some fine tweaks but I did think it up in five minutes, and I'm only semi serious... Give me a little credit.
ColdInsomnia~ And you seem to be a little confused as to how difficult the police and army would find it to control civilians.
They have lots and lots and lots of guns, with highly trained people using them.
The average civilian can't hold anything more than a miniature knife without being arrested.
Actually I fully realise how tha police and military would struggle, My brother is an Armed Protection officer in tha met... something along tha lines of armed response and gauding politictions ect.
And I know plenty of people who have and currently serve in tha forces.
I know tha average civvy can't hold these weapons, I know that all too well, I was arrested for putting a nine inch combat knife to a copper, during an Aggrevated Burglary and I have allways been known to have some form of tool not to far from my person.
But yeh my grand scheme is pathetically flawed, but its only a rough summary and given a month I could come up with a much better plan lol.  |
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| ColdInsomnia |
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ColdInsomnia
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| Posted: 04:58 - 12 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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| Mac_Kaliba wrote: | But yeh my grand scheme is pathetically flawed, but its only a rough summary and given a month I could come up with a much better plan lol. |
I'll give you two.
Message me when you're done 
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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
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| Itchy |
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Itchy
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| Posted: 09:39 - 12 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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| Mac_Kaliba wrote: | Yeh lol I do wish...
I do realise that too many people in this country would not have tha courage to take a stand, which Is why if there were to be any action from tha public it would have to be arranged through tha internet... It would give people tha confidence to see it through safe in tha knowledge that it would be widespread... like organising a ridout if you will (actually I would'nt know about that but sounds like a good example).
I know my plan is lacking some fine tweaks but I did think it up in five minutes, and I'm only semi serious... Give me a little credit.
ColdInsomnia~ And you seem to be a little confused as to how difficult the police and army would find it to control civilians.
They have lots and lots and lots of guns, with highly trained people using them.
The average civilian can't hold anything more than a miniature knife without being arrested.
Actually I fully realise how tha police and military would struggle, My brother is an Armed Protection officer in tha met... something along tha lines of armed response and gauding politictions ect.
And I know plenty of people who have and currently serve in tha forces.
I know tha average civvy can't hold these weapons, I know that all too well, I was arrested for putting a nine inch combat knife to a copper, during an Aggrevated Burglary and I have allways been known to have some form of tool not to far from my person.
But yeh my grand scheme is pathetically flawed, but its only a rough summary and given a month I could come up with a much better plan lol. |
the secret to supressing the masses is to ensure that different brigades are used to execute people in different parts of the country, thus you do not use Glasgow cops to execute folks in Glasgow, you use them to execute people in London, the reverse is also true , people don't like to execute their own family and friends and people in the army tasked to collectively punish and execute 500 people in their own towns may stop to think hey I know these people , the government propaganda is wrong, I refuse to do this or there will be a need to carry out even more executions of the executors.
Gordo knows this , why do you think he agreed to give Scottish police their 2.5% , and English cops 1.9% , Scottish cops will probably be used to break the strikes of the English cops.
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| Makaveli_Rydah |
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Makaveli_Rydah
Could Be A Chat Bot
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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| Posted: 13:08 - 12 Dec 2007 Post subject: |
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Jumping in late here - but that is one of the most in your face blatant evidence on a silver platter that i have ever seen 
Said above was our government do things more discreetly , i'd say it's pretty even between us and the U.S it's just that they have a larger "alternative" media than we do and they can get the truth out better than we can sometimes .
I also get the impression that most of our population just don't care about politics . Until a few years ago i couldn't give a fuck about it - it's not until it gets in the way of your everyday life that you begin to wake up .
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?
Joined: 21 Sep 2005
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 16 years, 140 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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