Crash bullshit

[leatherpatche...]

How many times do we hear (or read) about how someone,

"Knew I wasn't going to make it, so lay my bike down." (actually just had a lowside)

or

"Took the safest route and sat the bike up, smashing into the far section of bend." (actually just braked in a corner and ran wide)

or similar?

I'm going to bet there are a very small percentage of riders good enough to actually do the first and of these an even smaller subset who would have the presence of mind and balls to do it in a crash situation.

Let's face it, most crashes that are caused by rider error simply happen - carrying through the error that was made. There is no conscious decision to act one way or another, just the though of "CRAP!"; then the post-crash need to save face by pretending that part of the accident was under control.

Or am I being unfair?

(Also - maybe the bullshitters haven't heard but it's possible to blame a "patch of diesel/crap" on the road for almost any rider-induced crash these days...)

[jonchivers]

[Ben.]

not crashed through misjudgeing a corner yet (suprising really).
but whenever i misjudge a corner, depending on how ive been rideing/ how confident i am that day i eithier:

a) think shit... stand the bike up and brake as much as i can whilst still turning into the corner, on every occassion ive been lucky enough to shed enough speed off, but im sure if i wasnt haveing a lucky day i would just carry on going straight... target fixation.. bang!...

b) if i've been on a fast ride or haveing a good day, i usually just throw the bike over further and further, ive allways figured, im not good enough to reach the bikes limit, so im pretty sure the bike can do it, which means throw it over and hope for the best, you ethier low side or get round the corner.

so yeh i would agree, its eithier panic... brake... target fixation.. crash or fuck up mid corner or enter to hot try and make it round regardless, hope for the best and sometimes it doesnt pay off...
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[binge]

Im kind of with half life on this one.
Ive never been in a situation to think quick enough to react to a crash.

First time I had a low side. I was cornering, and just lost the front end. I didn't have a fucking clue what was going on!

One minute im scraping my knee and peg, thinking "woo everyone look at me!". Purely showing off.

Next thing I Knew I was sliding on my arse at 50mph towards the crash barrier.



And along the lines of target fixation. The times I have gone wide, Ive just looked at where I want to go, Counter steered like fcuk, and just gone for it. Luckily ive not mounted a curb yet.

And the only time your going to loose grip is when your tyres are too cold, Or you hit something in the road like oil/gravel really.

[Carl Howell]

Only happened to me once when I was going into a left hander which looked to be opening out. I was on my DT and the road looked like it had some dust/light gravel on and I realised the bend got tighter and I was going too quick. My bike probably would have made it but I don't trust knobblies so just had to turn in and brake as hard as I could without the bike standing up. Got round quite easily and probably could of at the speed I entered it at but didn't realise that at the time.

[leatherpatche...]

Last three responses are excellent. But counter-example to what I am talking about.

You didn't come on here (or another bike forum, or to your mates) and make out that somehow you retained some element of control.

However, many people seem to think this is a convincing way to report a crash...

I just get a little tired of hearing accounts like that.

[The Tot]

When i stacked my bike (which through a sequence of events cost me 2 grand to put right), it was all to easy to blame the oncoming car for the damage (well had it not been there, it would have been a grass verge - so the impact with the car door did a substantial amount of damage to my exhaust and panels, which would have otherwise gone unsighted).

I agree with Binge's perspective on saving situations where you're going wide. Do you THINK that you're at your maximum level of lean? Probably not! Your survival instincts tell you to panic brake and stand the bike up. After THAT rideout, i've gotten back the knack of looking down at exit, where you want to go and let your hands instinctively countersteer towards it. It comes with many years riding and making noobish mistakes, often when you're riding in a group trying to follow the fastest rider out there. Chances are, he would have made the same mistakes that you are/were making earlier in his riding life. I guess it's pub talk and creative imagination that can get you carried away into how good you think you are at riding on the road. When i hear stories which have been exaggerated out of proportion, i sagely nod because i know what they've been doing. I guess looking closely at the events of the last few weeks when i've just been riding on the road with other people and seeing the things that you've described, I'd need to get myself on an IAM/Rospa or any other riding improvement course (since i did bikesafe already) as well as getting on a track day. I guess if the people you are talking about have done events like this, then chances are they'd understand more about their riding as much as what they know about their machine.

I think it is a tad unfair to come up with these statements, but you gotta learn from your mistakes. There's a difference between bullshitting it and thinking that was the particular reason for your near miss and crash and standing by it. In the heat of the moment, it can become all to easy to conclude it was those sequence of events that lead to your downfall. The difference is that if you DO bullshit it, look back in retrospect and realise exactly what you did, then it's THAT which will make you a better rider. Acknowledging your mistakes and shutting up is how i put it. Knowing that YOU can be at fault and that you AREN'T invincible might be the thing that saves your life on the next rideout.

With the diesel thing, sometimes can be out of control, yeah, there was some on the roundabout where i came off and there's nothing that can be done about it when you're cranked over and unless you've been in that situation, i don't think that you'd be able to make an informed decision. As a result, i approach roundabouts like a pussy in anything other than DRY conditions, even 5mph can have you off (i binned it at 10-15mph - witnesses saw me just tip the bike in, going slowly, then was on my arse 1 second later).

I blamed it on diesel for the lowside . it's all too easy to blame - admittedly, there was a bit of grease. It's hard luck when it is diesel, sure you get pissed off, but i've learnt not to whinge about it... it won't get your confidence back, which was why for the 6-7 months following this accident, i always approached my bike with caution when mounting it, thinking it'll throw me off again, but it's all psychological.

When looking back in hindsight, I only had myself to blame for not realising that i had a dodgy headstock (bearings shot) because all I do is commute in a straight line. I tipped my bike in on the wet and got on the gas too early whilst cranked over and the front end washed out.... By the time i realised, i was on my arse with 1200 quids worth of damage at that point alone to my bike (not to mention other party's car).
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The Tot 2019 Z1000SX - 2007 R1
Never argue with autism

[Tricolor Fan]

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

[veeeffarr]

[Steve-D]

I'm quite happy to admit about my crash.
Going to fast for the conditions. Wet and greasy, into a short 45 degree corner. Back end slid out, me doing lots of cartwheels, which are surprisingly fun thinking back to it.
People at college look down on me for it, shouldn't be on a bike yadada bollocks. Maybe you should get a 125. Yet they fall of their 50cc peds all the time, I fall off once at about the same speed as them, not doing 100mph.
As someone said, I see it as a learning curve, now I have fallen off, at slowish speeds, not badly hurt. Makes me just that little bit more wary when doing high speeds.
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Tristan The said 'Dunno what my pace will be like, fastish slow puncture on the rear and if I go too fast I risk my 'keys' falling out'

[Greenchills]

What if your going round a bend and you suddenly realise theres a gaping hole in the road exactly on the line your taking that you see just as you start to straighten up to come out? I've never come off but theres this corner near me thats pretty much a curvy right angle. First time i saw the hole I shat myself. Just put the bike totally straight and rode over it. Ended up going waaay wide though. Should I have just tried to nail it? I was a bit paranoid i wouldnt get it right and catch the side of the hole and end up on my arse, had seen there were no cars before i went in. lucky there wernt

[stinkwheel]

Well I disagree.

I have twice had the whole "matrix time" thing where time appears to slow down.

The first time was when some guy swung a u-turn from where he was parked in a bus lane right in front of me. I had time to decide if I was going to hit the car or fly over the roof. Witness statements (off a mate who was stood right next to the crash waiting for a bus) report me "walking" backwards along the saddle on my hands trying to back away from the car. I took the B-pillar on my shoulder armour as intended.

The second time was when I got highsided by my GPZ. I had no warning whatsoever that I was coming off. Once I was sliding along the road I somehow had time to carry out the reasoning that if I continued sliding on my arse, I would hit the armco hard. I deduced the best way to slow down would be to increase my surface area in contact with the road. I then, quite deliberately, laid back on my jacket. The rag-dolling thing was a bit of a blur, but I stopped short of the armco.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Carl Howell]

[krebsy]

In my big smash, I definitely had a good old bit of "bullet-time". When the bike dropped onto it's side, I remember thinking quite clearly and slowly. "Hmm... This is going to hurt..."

Very odd....

K.
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1280 x 1024.

[Shaun]

This isn't about what happens when you're sliding along the road though, this is about people claiming superior riding ability.

Any time I've had 'moments' my efforts have always been to stop the incident happening, I realised I'd gone in to a corner too quick, I hung off and slammed the bike over hoping for the best. I have never thought right, better put the bike down like so many riders on here have claimed to have done, the only riders that would be able to do this are clearly closet self harmers.

I've seen riders blame diesel for offs as well.... when the road is bone dry on a hot summers day. In 6 years of riding I've not once smashed a bike up due to diesel, yes it's slippy but if you have half an ounce of common sense then you don't die, chances are if diesel has spat you off then you were riding too quick for the conditions anyway and had it coming.

[Hetzer]

[the grim reaper]

I've not ever deliberately laid a bike down or jumped off etc but I have deliberately applied the front brake in the knowledge that doing so would likely end up in me coming off.

Years ago on my 125 I lost the back end on ice and was able to hold it up speedway style for about a second or two. I realised that on my current course I would hit a parked car so I braked with the front (right foot was on the deck so no rear brake) and the bike went down, as expected.

This was on ice when the gritters had neglected to cover this bit of road in Cornwall. It was very low speed (<20mph) so I had time to think, my other crashes have been 'Oh shi... bang', 'Oh shi .... thud' and 'Knee down, woohoo, hip down, noooooo, shoulder down, bugger, bye bye bike, please don't self destruct'.

The last one was on diesel but I was knee down so had no margin for the front tyre to re-grip, entirely my fault for riding too close to the limit on a roundabout near a busy garage.

Live and learn though, live and learn.

Cheers

Grim
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Adverts don't always work: Remember that advert, where the army are running across the desert and they have a wounded man on a stretcher. They get to a ravine, the bridge is down and a caption pops up that says, 'What are you thinking?'. I don't know about you but I was thinking, 'Christ, I'm glad I'm not in the f***ing army'.

[pa_broon74]

Haven't come of the bike yet. Did crash my car though (pretty seriously involving it going end over end.)

I agree with the matrix time thing, it seems you have a hell of a long time in mid-air for all sorts of thoughts to fly through your head.

I had three thoughts; you twat, this is going to hurt and I don't want to be trapped in the car, then it was over. I ended up head first in the passenger foot well (logically but oddly, while the car had flipped end over end, I'd remained in the same position in relation to the Earth.)

I'd agree with hetzer, in these situations you act purely from instinct. The more experience you have the better your instincts are going to be.

I don't ride fast enough to get my knee down, not really interested in doing it either. I imagine when I do come off the bike, it'll happen so quickly (in real time not matrix time) that the first thing I'll know is when I sit up from the grass, tarmac or crawl out of the river. I don't think have the instincts (or experience) to be able to do a whole hell of a lot about it as yet.


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Didn't catch anything.

[the grim reaper]

I also agree on the whole matrix thing, when I had my massive crash, back when I thought I was immortal, I locked up the front and saw the smoke coming off the tyre, then, about half an hour later (or so it felt) I hit the car and it all went quiet.

I thought 'bugger, I've killed myself, you tw4t, so is this what dead feels like then?', then I hit the floor. I cleared the car completely and it felt like I was in the air for ages.

Weird how the human mind works, or doesn't in my case

Cheers

Grim
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Adverts don't always work: Remember that advert, where the army are running across the desert and they have a wounded man on a stretcher. They get to a ravine, the bridge is down and a caption pops up that says, 'What are you thinking?'. I don't know about you but I was thinking, 'Christ, I'm glad I'm not in the f***ing army'.

[stinkwheel]

A few years ago MCN published a cracking series of pictures of Carl Foggarty getting off his Ducati at about 140mph.

First picture, back wheel spinning up.

Second picture. All crossed up, going horribly wrong, starting to tank slap.

Third picture. Foggy swinging right leg over back of saddle.

Fourth picture. Foggy standing on road next to bike (still doing 140mph) holding onto handlebars.

Fifth picture. Quite clearly just pushed the bike away from him. Standing on the road still doing 140mph, bike flying through the air next to him.

Sixth picture. Sits down, slides on arse.

Final picture. Thumbs up from gravel trap.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[rovens]

Do you have the pics?

[ajb]

been riding my cbr125 for about 3weeks, nothing to speak of personally.

my thoughts are though, the motorcyclists you see killed, do they 'go for it' or 'abandon ship'. If only there was a way to know.
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CBR125R '05 > CB500 '00 > CBR600F '99

[TheDonUK]

I have had bullet-time moments, a notable one was a couple of years back on the service road that runs parallel with the North Circular by the Ace cafe,

as you approach a railway bridge, there are thick railings by the road and literally no escape routes, a minicab blindly pops out behind an AA truck heading right for me, The recovery truck is taking up all of the oncoming lane on and the fucking minicab is about to wipe me out.

As soon as he moves out behind the truck im hard on the brakes and over to my left, I clearly remember preparing myself to jump at the moment of impact, i was practically standing on the pegs as he JUST made the overtake in time with me hard on the brakes and the AA guy slowing down too... Needless to say i was not a happy bunnie

[Syx]

I crashed out on Coppice at Donny; quite a quick corner, lost the front end. I was actually on the floor still on the bike but sideways before I'd even realised that the front had gone. Once the realisation kicked in though, I had enough time to push the bike away, then notice the road rash I was getting through my worn-out glove, and pick my hand up before hitting the gravel and everything going back to normal speed. It was very weird how everything seemed to slow down for a moment immediately after the realisation that I'd binned it - but it certainly didn't happen anywhere near early enough for me to even contemplate saving it.

I would be in agreement that the wording most people choose is just to save face - we all know that at the end of the day it means you binned the bike so how you phrase it doesn't make that much difference!

[MarJay]

When I crashed my blade there was definately a clear thought process that I can remember. This is in fact similar to the other crash I've had.

Basically I can remember the "Ohshit" moment, and then there was a "I've tried A, I've tried B - I'd better try C or else I'm going to hurt myself" ... memory blank ... ... lying on the floor/sliding.

Reminds me a bit of the book "The Right Stuff" by Tom Wolfe. They talk about fighter pilots who can't eject for whatever reason in emergency situations; "I've tried A, I've tried B, I've tried C. What now?"

I do agree that standing a bike up to go straight on is rarely a good course of action (unless its to avoid a car or something) But I disagree that whenever anyone says "I laid the bike down" they are lying. Admittedly I didn't consciously lay my blade down, but I did consciously decide to let go of the bars otherwise the tankslapper was going to pull my arms off. My brain knew that this would result in a crash, so in a way I knew I was going to make myself crash. If I didn't do that I was going to have injured arms and my bike would have hit a kerb with me still seated on it which would have been very bad.
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