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Locked the front

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The Disapproving Brit
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PostPosted: 02:16 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Locked the front Reply with quote
Approaching a crossing, wet road, doing about 20 in moderate traffic. Lights changed in plenty of time, but I gave it more front brake than I should have. Front locked up and started to slide, I instinctively put my feet down to steady the bike. Stopped half way up the ramp (it was one of those 'crossings on a speed bump' things).

Lessons learned - the front brake is a lot less forgiving in the wet, and putting your feet down means the back brake is no longer an option.

Plus points - I stayed on the bike, didn't stall it, and learned a little about riding in the wet. I wasn't filtering which means I had a lane to myself, so I got away with the slight sideways movement. Oh, and I didn't kill any pedestrians.

Was my second 'oh shit' moment though. First was last weekend coming back from the Cat & Fiddle. Misjudged a corner and ended up on the wrong side of the road. Luckily for me nothing was coming.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 04:12 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Re: Locked the front Reply with quote
timbstoke wrote:
Approaching a crossing, wet road, doing about 20 in moderate traffic. Lights changed in plenty of time, but I gave it more front brake than I should have. Front locked up and started to slide, I instinctively put my feet down to steady the bike.
didn't stall it, and learned a little about riding in the wet..


In the wet more rear than front....

Don't pull the clutch in when braking, the engine is your best friend to aid stopping. Only pull it in when nearly stopped.
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Moonie
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PostPosted: 05:48 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
What bike do you ride?

I know the feeling, I ride a 50 but can't touch the front brake in the wet even gently because they're so ridiculously over powerful for the bike.

Engine braking ftw, just don't lock the back Laughing
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blownygti
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PostPosted: 06:34 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
why can`t you use your back brake to come to a standstill ????? you shouldn`t be using your front brake at all below 20 in the wet, even in the dry below 15 you should be off the front brake altogether !!
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Wise1
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PostPosted: 07:56 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
At 15-20 if you have the stopping distance then back brake is ok wne applied smoothly. But I would not recomend in the wet using just back, they are both there for a reason, always use them both to get full control of the bike when stopping.

That way when your in a position of having to stop suddenly you wont lock anything up and its easy to do even at 15mph
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blownygti
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PostPosted: 08:32 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
wisenerl wrote:
At 15-20 if you have the stopping distance then back brake is ok wne applied smoothly. But I would not recomend in the wet using just back, they are both there for a reason, always use them both to get full control of the bike when stopping.

That way when your in a position of having to stop suddenly you wont lock anything up and its easy to do even at 15mph


at 15-20 you should always have the stopping distance otherwise your driving too close then your risking a lock up, if you keep your distance using the rear more than the front in the wet will prevent locking up and a skid is more controlable than loosing the front altogether in the wet !!!
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Bendy
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PostPosted: 08:56 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
blownygti wrote:
you shouldn`t be using your front brake at all below 20 in the wet, even in the dry below 15 you should be off the front brake altogether !!


Why on earth would you advise that?

The front brake is the one with all the power, they key is learning how to use it correctly in all conditions. That ability is one of the major components of being able to ride a motorbike.
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killa
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PostPosted: 09:01 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you have adjustable levers maybe you could set it so it isn't so snappy.
I have mine on 2 so there's a bit of squeeze. Thumbs Up
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blownygti
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bendy wrote:
blownygti wrote:
you shouldn`t be using your front brake at all below 20 in the wet, even in the dry below 15 you should be off the front brake altogether !!


Why on earth would you advise that?

The front brake is the one with all the power, they key is learning how to use it correctly in all conditions. That ability is one of the major components of being able to ride a motorbike.


this is what I was taught by my DAS instructor for wet weather riding ( 4 months ago ) only !! obviously in the dry its different but when its wet he said use your both brakes until about 15mph he said once you get more exeprience you`ll bring this down but to come to a halt you ideally should come off the front brake to elimante losing the front at all !!! it makes sense as I have seen a few people lock up the front in the wet when coming to a halt especially if they accidently stop on a mainhole cover
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Wil
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
I use front and back in all conditions up to a near standstill. The key is learning how much to use in any given situation. I'd rather push the front to its limit and control it than go into the BMW in front with ABS and a lead foot on the brakes.
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Bendy
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PostPosted: 13:05 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
blownygti wrote:
it makes sense as I have seen a few people lock up the front in the wet when coming to a halt especially if they accidently stop on a mainhole cover


If someone 'accidentally' stops on a manhole cover then their observations suck ass.

The front does all the stopping, so I'm going to use it right up until the point that I've stopped. In the wet I'm obviously not going to pull it on as sharply as I can get away with in the dry, but it's still the one that's going to do all the stopping.


I think too many people are scared of the front brake and some are putting themselves in quite a dangerous position because of their refusal to use it to it's full capability. A half hour in a carpark finding out just how hard your bike can stop (in all conditions) could save your neck one day.
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Rustle
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I think too many people are scared of the front brake and some are putting themselves in quite a dangerous position because of their refusal to use it to it's full capability. A half hour in a carpark finding out just how hard your bike can stop (in all conditions) could save your neck one day.

I've gone from one extreme to the other while learning, started out with too much front brake, dropped it Embarassed then only back brake because I was scared of using too much front again. It worked but I wasn't stopping under control and was putting my foot down to stop. Now a happy medium! Very Happy Brake smoothly, feel your way to a stop and you should have any problems. Wet conditions 50/50 that's what I was told.
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Wise1
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
blownygti wrote:

at 15-20 you should always have the stopping distance otherwise your driving too close then your risking a lock up, if you keep your distance using the rear more than the front in the wet will prevent locking up and a skid is more controlable than loosing the front altogether in the wet !!!


What I said was that yes if you have the stopping distance available the back brake will work, however the engine brake coming down the gears is better than using the bakc at all.

As already stated, its your observations of the road surface that will determine your brake use but always use the front, its the best brake to stop you in all conditions and it then becomes how much you apply the back in conjunction with it. Even in the wet its still more effective than the back when done properly.

In the dry (I have tried it) I can stop my bike from 35 mph using the front only in just about 1/2 the distance it takes me to do it with the back on its own. When I did it with the back I needed a few tries to stop locking the back wheel.
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Finglonga
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PostPosted: 14:17 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
timbstoke, what did you hit/run over to make the front lock up, if you pull the brake on progressively you should never lock up unless you hit overbanding or the white line.

Bendy wrote:


I think too many people are scared of the front brake and some are putting themselves in quite a dangerous position because of their refusal to use it to it's full capability. A half hour in a carpark finding out just how hard your bike can stop (in all conditions) could save your neck one day.


They should make that part of the test, being able to raise the back wheel off the ground under heavy braking.
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The Disapproving Brit
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Honestly, I'm not sure. Google maps shows no road markings, although the crossing is just on the start of a bend, so I wasn't entirely straight.

I suspect I left the braking a little late, and so had to use a little more force than necessary. I anticipate a little wet weather car park practice in my near future.
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Kal
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PostPosted: 15:14 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
In the wet, snow and other dodgy conditions braking should be 50/50 keeping the bike level.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 18:34 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
timbstoke wrote:
I suspect I left the braking a little late, and so had to use a little more force than necessary. .


I think you were more than a little late. From 20 mph you should be able to stop in less than 2 car lengths.

Quote:
Lights changed in plenty of time,


Mmm.
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The Disapproving Brit
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 01 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, there was plenty of time. My problem is confidence in the wet. I was too gentle on the breaks early on precisely because I didn't want to lose control, which meant I was forced to brake harder than I should have had to closer to the lights to try and stop in time, realising my own fear in the process.

Time in a car park, in the wet, is very much the order of the day. Fortunately, it was a minor incident in the scheme of things that made me realise the need for practice. Roundabouts are another area I need wet weather practice on - right now I crawl round them because I'm worried about losing the bike.
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Jai466
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PostPosted: 05:59 - 03 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
wisenerl wrote:
blownygti wrote:

at 15-20 you should always have the stopping distance otherwise your driving too close then your risking a lock up, if you keep your distance using the rear more than the front in the wet will prevent locking up and a skid is more controlable than loosing the front altogether in the wet !!!


What I said was that yes if you have the stopping distance available the back brake will work, however the engine brake coming down the gears is better than using the bakc at all.

As already stated, its your observations of the road surface that will determine your brake use but always use the front, its the best brake to stop you in all conditions and it then becomes how much you apply the back in conjunction with it. Even in the wet its still more effective than the back when done properly.

In the dry (I have tried it) I can stop my bike from 35 mph using the front only in just about 1/2 the distance it takes me to do it with the back on its own. When I did it with the back I needed a few tries to stop locking the back wheel.


Sorry Lee, in the thread before "engine braking" you said that you should not use engine braking (comming down in gear).
It is possible you could explain please.

Thanks

Just Confused.
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tutton
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 03 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
^^ To the above post, thats because like any wet braking/speed reduction needs to be done progressivly and not all in one chunk.

If you drop the gears and let clutch out too fast or dont match the engine speed properly then the rear will lock up, which in dry thats fine but in the wet makes it a bit more tricky to control, but if you feather the clutch back out on downshifts and dont block shift you should be fine.
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Jai466
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PostPosted: 19:17 - 03 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
tutton wrote:
^^ To the above post, thats because like any wet braking/speed reduction needs to be done progressivly and not all in one chunk.

If you drop the gears and let clutch out too fast or dont match the engine speed properly then the rear will lock up, which in dry thats fine but in the wet makes it a bit more tricky to control, but if you feather the clutch back out on downshifts and dont block shift you should be fine.


Thanks m8.
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