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LustyLew
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Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 08:52 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Motorcycle PCN Reply with quote
Hi all,

Need to pick some brains on PCN's within Camden Council.

I have been issues a PCN with:
Quote:
Contravention Code 62
Parked with one or more wheels on any part of an urban
road other than a carriageway (footway parking)


Now, my bike was parked on an area of pavement that appears to be designated for solo motorcycles. There is only one painted white line at the kerbside. The bay is made of different blocks than the rest of the pavement. The front wheel was not on the ones the bay was made of. At no point on this road are there signs telling you to park within a specific area.

I did some rooting on the Camden Council website, and found this:

Quote:
Type of bay
Solo Motorcycles

Description (the north-west to south-east arm), all that part of the carriageway which is bounded on the south-west and north-east by so much of the edge of the carriageway of that highway as extends from the north-western kerb-line of the north-west to south-east ar

Times Between 8:30am and 6:30pm on Mondays to Saturdays
Zone CAC
Reference 7863


Now, if you look at the description field, it is incomplete. Also, this does not actually tell you that the area is designated by differing coloured paving blocks.

I have also attached a picasso paint picture of the setup. I do have pictures too, but my phone has died! Grr! The red box is my bike, the black dots represent bollards.

I have also found this on the website:
Quote:
Contravention Code 24
Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space.
A contravention occurs when the vehicle is not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space, for example, two wheels have been stopped outside the length or width.
The CEO will take into consideration circumstances where there has been a genuine attempt to park correctly. For example, when a car is parked as close as is reasonably possible to the kerbside, yet the wheels are outside of the parking place because it is a relatively narrow parking place, then it is unlikely that a PCN will be issued.
A PCN will be issued instantly unless the CEO has reason to believe that an exemption applies.


Therefore I think I have been issued a PCN incorrectly, as there is no way my bike could fit reasonably within the space defined, unless I was to be a complete git and take up space for 3 bikes, like I did today!

So, I'm guessing everyone here will tell me to contest it, but is it really worth it? I've tried looking up regulations for the size of m/c bays, but there doesn't seem to be one. I would have thought that without adequate signage and markings the bay is not really that legit anyway.

Anyone like to offer an opinion?

Cheers! Very Happy
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TheDonUK
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: 09:00 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
One wheel on the pavement from what i can make out from your (most excellent) paint drawing, unfortunately thats more than enough for camden council...
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yen_powell
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Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a minimum width for a motorcycle bay. It is shown under Diagram 1028.4 in 'The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002'.

The minimum width for a bay is 1.8 metres, the maximum width is 2.7 metres.
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LustyLew
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Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
How are you defining width? Kerb to road? Or so you can decide how many bikes can fit in the thing?

As the bay is at an angle, I wonder if they could define the width at the angle of the bay?
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TomR6
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Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's kerb to road I believe, as they're on an angle the width is measured as shown below.

Click

On page 121 Diag. 1033 it shows how to measure it.(It's for a disabled bay but it is measured the same)
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LustyLew
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Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi,

yen_powell and TOM thank you so much. The bay is nowhere near 1.8m wide! Camden Council seem to have very odd bays! I'm off the the parking bay now armed with a camera and tape measure!

Twisted Evil

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yen_powell
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Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
LH-ER5 wrote:
How are you defining width? Kerb to road? Or so you can decide how many bikes can fit in the thing?

As the bay is at an angle, I wonder if they could define the width at the angle of the bay?
The measurement should be from the outside edge of the road side white line to the vertical face of the kerb. This measurement applies only to the parrallel parts of the bay, not the tapered ends of the layby.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:31 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just be aware that Greater London has its own, special and extra stupid traffic laws which do not apply to the rest of the country.

These might take prescedence over the usual parking bay regulations.

Equally they might not but don't be surprised if they come up with some London ordanance stating that their motorcycle bays are allowed to be half the width of the smallest motorcycle ever manufactured.
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LustyLew
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Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yup,

Found my tape measure and a camera. Evidence snapped and the bays are 1560mm wide. Even scooters have difficulty parking within the markings, which are also incorrect...!

Worth a shot...!
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s44678
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's ALWAYS worth an appeal. Even if all you have is some spurious bullsh*t reason.

Just say someone moved your bike to get theirs in (totally feasible) as by parking correctly you had taken up all 3 bays, and maybe they should look at widening it in the future to prevent anyone else getting a ticket.

Would be surprised if you didn't get off.
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yen_powell
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Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Just be aware that Greater London has its own, special and extra stupid traffic laws which do not apply to the rest of the country.

These might take prescedence over the usual parking bay regulations.

Equally they might not but don't be surprised if they come up with some London ordanance stating that their motorcycle bays are allowed to be half the width of the smallest motorcycle ever manufactured.
To put any sign or markings on the highway that aren't exactly as per the TSRGD2002 they have to have written authorisation from the Secretary of State.

I've had rows with my own parking department about dodgy parking signs that they claim to have special authorisation for. When pushed they admitted they had no such thing.

Very few highway authorities get this authorisation when they put down non standard markings, they are just relying on people paying up and not asking questions. For instance most of the yellow box junctions in London are non compliant, I believe TFL are now hurrying to get authorisation for them as lots of people have realised now and are winning appeals on that very ground.

Most parking bays or their associated signs have something wrong with them. I went past about 50 this morning which are wrong in the borough I work in. I aint gonna point it out, might save me a fine at some future point.
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TomR6
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Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just like how half the TRO's are incorrect around me, they're currently going and checking each one, making sure it's correct or rewriting it. Uber costly.
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Last edited by TomR6 on 20:50 - 26 Feb 2009; edited 1 time in total
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Hello there mandem
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Joined: 09 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 26 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
always contest them, i was parked locked to a lamp post on the pavement. issued a pnc and asked them to send me a picture of it, as i belive that it is not justifyed. the sent a letter saying the have revoked the pnc. worth a shot and i got away with it and it was in wandsworth.

always worth a shot
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LustyLew
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Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 27 Feb 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
PCN Objection submitted.

Can do it online, but it seems Camden Council have programmed a 'bug' into the portal whereby it crashes when upload the images. Took 5 attempts!

If I dont hear anything after 56 days, it's cancelled. May also consider writing to the secretary of state asking if they have requested permission for these bays to be smaller than the regulated size.

Spoken to a few mates who work in loosely assoicated Gov't departments and they believe the rules apply to Greater London too.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 16 years, 359 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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