Wooton Bassett.

[Fisty]

This Gordon Brown you slack jawed scottish cunt is why we should bring the troops home now.
I hate seeing this, today it bought me to tears. You and your cronies are fully responsible for the deaths of these people.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8149051.stm
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TL1000R | Hayabusa | ZXR400 | TL1000S | Bandit 400 V
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[Robby]

Fully responsible?

I think you have to allocate some of the blame to the guys who chose to join the army in the first place. Soldiers get shot.

[Mudskipper]

And as in every war, the cowards who send them to die insult them with lies about the futility of their deaths.

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

For your people, maybe. For your country, run by the lowest scum, no fucking way.

RIP lads.
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"You're clumsy, you eat too much and you behave like a 12 year old boy. But you know what? Every once in a while, you find a thumb."

[Ariel Badger]

fighting by proxy for America is never a good idea. Blair was a poodle, Brown is without a clue.
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Bikers make great organ donors, get 115 on your licence today.

[JonB]

People are all to ready to shout "bring them home", yet they don't think of the wider consequences.

What about the Afghan civilians who have found their homes ripped apart and their family members killed through no fault of their own. Their husbands, sons and fathers didn't ask go to a fight.

We went into Afghanistan, it is imperitive that we do not leave until the job (whatever that may be) is complete. You can't just rip up a country and leave it in a complete mess. We are now morally responsible for Afghanistan, the Taleban are the primary goal, but stability in Afghanistan will be the next cause.

I can wager that there have been many many more innocent Afghans killed than British forces personnel.

Also, at the end of the day, you join the forces you have to prepare yourself for the grim possibility that you could die in action. Lets face it, they are hardly dying in WWII proportions and if you think they are poorly equipped now, you wouldn't even be able to comprehend how poorly equipped our soldiers were in the past.

The only thing about the situation in Afghanistan that truly gets me angry is that our soldiers are effectively fighting cowards, whose only methods of fighting are to lay bombs in the path of the oncoming enemy. Although in their situation i'd do the same. I can't quite understand why there isn't more air support to flank the ground troops. I guess this is where they are presumably under equipped.

It is a grim situation in Afghanistan, but a knee-jerk pullout from Afghanistan is NOT the answer.
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Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it?s worth.

[Ichy]

I have nothing but respect for those that believe in fighting for what they believe in. Unfortunately the 'people' they are defending are, in the main, not worth the sacrifice. Personally I would send every little shit of legal age over there for a reality check.
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[tatters]

[Ariel Badger]

I feel for the people of Afghanistan, especially the women. The country has been used by the superpowers as a tool for over a 100 years. the taliban are a product of America's opposition to the Soviet Union via there proxy army of the Mujurhadine assisting a democratically elected govt in Kabul in 1980 from Islamic extremists. Bung in "The war on drugs" prohibition insanity of Uncle Sam and a chunk of Islamaphobia and you have hell on earth. Who suffers? Kids and women
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Bikers make great organ donors, get 115 on your licence today.

[WildGoose]

Afghanistan was in a shitty mess before we got involved in 2001 and for most of its history, we are neck deep in it as well now, but quite why i'm not sure.

The under-equipped thing gets on my nerves, and is simply a media bandwagon for people to jump on who haven't a fucking clue about what is really going on out there.

Yes they can always have more, but they all have body armour, ammunition, food etc. The nature of explosions and bullets killing people hasn't changed, there is only so protected you can make someone on a two way firing range or a minefield.

If you add heavily armoured vehicles, you reduce their speed and agility, and also massively increase costs when one gets destroyed.

The deaths are a direct result of the way they are forced to operate out there, light armour and foot patrols, right in amongst it basically searching for invisible guerilla type forces who could be a civilian one minute and a armed terrorist type the next.

Surprise is probably quite a key element so you can't go charging in 'ride of the valkyries' everywhere.

Aside from this, most of the deaths i've seen reported have been from IED's of which there is little to nothing you can do about until it blows up underneath you.

Air support is there, if you haven't been keeping up, the Harriers were dealing with it for the past 4-5 years now the Tornado's are taking over. The guys on the ground don't mess about, in most of the engagements i've seen footage of, they have a pointless exchange of gunfire with an enemy they can't quite identify for about 20 minutes, then if the situation is suitable air support comes in and drops a few 1000lb bombs on that position. Very expensive and inefficient way to fight a war.

Iraq is being heralded as some kind of a success, Afghanistan will probably be much like america's Vietnam on perhaps a longer time scale and with a less climactic ending, we will eventually withdraw in 10-15 years, and it will probably be in much the same state as it is now. We will have wasted billions, and hundreds more will probably die.

There is no doubting the bravery of the guys out there for a second, I wouldn't want to do it.

It is very sad to see all this young life wasted, and despite what they say it is mostly for nothing, which makes it all the more depressing.
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So in other words, he stopped you for being flagrantly in posession of a motorcycle in direct contravention of the Hippies, Darkies and People Whose Face I Don't Like The Look of (Police Powers) Act. 1976

[s44678]

One theory is that the recent high death toll is down to the Taliban being cornered and frightened and literally having a last ditch attempt at us*

So better to loose 8 lives a week and it be over in a month than to loose 1 life a week for another 3 years.


* can't remember where I heard this so take it with a pinch of salt.

[pa_broon74]

I think its easy to shout 'bring them home' from a distance. But I suspect the soldiers who serve over there and the journalists who both see the human side of what they are doing in terms of the Afghan people on the ground might help to change your mind.

When we have a bad day at work, something breaks or something isn't delivered: this we know. When soldier has a bad day, especially in action; they die. They know that too.

The real crime is the soldiers not being fully equipped. Apparently while troop numbers have doubled the ratio of helicopters has remained the same meaning more soldiers have to move on the ground leaving them vulnerable to attack.

I think its important to not only empathise with the soldiers but with the Afghan people too. For the first time, girls are going to school and boys can see a future outwith the strictures of taleban rule.

It's easy for me sitting here to say it, but I think what the armed forces are doing in Afghanistan is still righteous even if at times, it seems a little poorly executed.


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Didn't catch anything.

[Ichy]

Unlikely Skluff.

Guerllia warfare on home territory is very effective and proven over thousands of years.


The majority of the IRA were know by the British Government, how long did that last?
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[Catalyst]

I've been following this closely as i've just applied for the RAF and have my selection in 3 weeks. Quite worrying if i'm honest although i won't be frontline infantry but moving around bases in the land rovers is when you get hit.

There is 1 helicopter to every 700 British troops currently in Afghan', compare that to the US army which have 1 helicopter to every 200 troops. Now putting that into perspective it's quite easy to see we are not funding the forces enough, obviously the yanks have more money but they also have 3 times the amount of troops out there.

I guess i should be happy that it's finally in the media spotlight as usually anything about the war is just left out of the news. The thing is, i'm NOT happy as people are just jumping on the bandwagon now talking shit saying "Bring them home" when they don't know anything about the theatre of war we are fighting in.

One last thing, the troops aren't "Fighting & dying for their country" they are simply fighting for the men next to them. You don't go out there to make the country proud, you go out there to help the rest of the boys that are knee deep in shit risking their life everyday.
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SlimRick - I can cook really well - but it's a useless skill, as I'm not a woman and it's their fucking job!

[G]

[colin1]

I think cornering someone in mountains that he and his family have been fighting in for generations, would be tricky.

Soldiers join up to fire guns at people. Part of the deal is the risk of death. That's their choice. The people trying to defend their country, or the people referred to as collateral damage, dont really have a choice.

Wars are often fought in the name of one reason, when actually for another reason.

Iraqs oil hasnt yet turned into the cash cow that the oil companies had hoped for. Maybe it still will at some point.

The strategic goal for Afghanistan may be an oil pipe line from the oil states to china, but they are going to need to invade Iran for that to happen. Those plans have stalled a bit.

Often people learn the wrong lessons from history, interpreting the present by assuming that history repeats itself.

Pretending Hussein was a new Hitler who needed to be stopped, actually just justified Bush doing his own mini-genocide of Iraqi people, resulting in nearly a million deaths.

Holocaust denial may be taboo, but denying that the Iraq war was a bad thing seems quite acceptable to the likes of Bush and Blair.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[D O G]

Can anyone tell me what we are doing there?

Genuinely, I have no idea, and my best mate is an officer in the Army. I asked him once and he couldn't give me an answer. Slightly concerning (for him too, no doubt), since he'll be off there within a year.

What is the 'official' line?

Seems like a dirty great big waste of resources to me.

[colin1]

The official line, is that the Taleban are a threat to the world as they threaten the world with terrorism. This is because, they ran afghanistan, when Al Quaeda were linked with various terrorist attacks including 9/11.

America demanded that Afghanistan (ruled by the taleban) hand over Ossama bin Laden. It is customary for some evidence to be shown, before a country extradites someone. America had no evidence, so got cross. So it then becomes that afghanistan must pay for harbouring terrorists.

The fact that Al quaeda is arguably more closely linked with Pakistan, and previous american governments, is forgotten.

Naturally, when Americans invade afghanistan, many taleban and al quaeda folk head for the hills, and or pakistan.

For a little while this created a false sense that the war in afghanistan had been won. It was just a tactical retreat. Now the militants pushed into pakistan, are causing problems there, and america has been launching attacks in pakistan, and pressuring pakistan to take part in attacks. This of course makes some people in pakistan support the militants.

Basically, foreign rulers have to be respectful to america, and rulers with their own ideas possibly who dont like the selfish ways of america, can get in trouble.

Recently an airliner crashed in Iran. It could be an american conspiracy to get revenge for attacks on american soldiers, or more likely, its the effect of decades of sanction limiting supply of planes and parts, so they have to make do with russian planes which nowadays its tricky to get parts for.

Thats just one incident in which political decisions in america result in deaths of real people, who happen to be a bit different from us. Gadaffi has realised you can beat the great satan, so you might aswell suck up to him. Consequently life is a lot easier for Libya and Gadaffi now. Obama has extended a hand suggesting that Iranians could also come in from the cold. The current rulers of Iran arent so keen on that, even if some of the people are.

Iran has suffered a great deal from attacks instigated by america. The Iran-Iraq war in which Iraq invaded Iran, is thought to have been instigated by america, and they certainly supplied iraq with assistance including chemical weapons technology.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Dr. DaveJPS]

[pa_broon74]

I think you need to be careful about what text you put after a 'could' statement there Colin...

The plane wasn't Iranian, it was a Caspian Airways plane from Armenia and the majority of the passengers where ethnic Armenians.

America are guilty of many things, but cannot be held responsible for the upkeep of an old Russian Tupolev aircraft which arguably, were pretty crap to begin with.

As to why there are coalition forces in Afghanistan? It was a hard line Muslim country that harboured terrorist training camps, that much was known to the world. Whether the people who hijacked the planes were trained there, I don't know.

Looking at it from a simplistic point of view, it was a shit regime that oppressed it's people (women and children especially) in the name of religion. That coupled with the aim of ending a situation within a country conducive to propagating terrorist* attacks (conspiracy theories not withstanding) is why they are there.

If not that, there is no oil so somebody may have found a way to make vehicles run on opium.




* I hate to use the term 'terrorist.' I always feel it imbues these phantom people with an ability to induce fear they don't actually possess.
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Didn't catch anything.

[G]

[Visitor Q]

I was once contemplating the army, until I saw a recruitment campaign stating proudly 'No qualifications? No problem!'

That pretty much sums it up. I've not met many squaddies I'd want anywhere near me with a gun to be honest, and I've met plenty (they used to train near where I went to uni).

These guys are cannon fodder. The fact that nowadays we can own them in firefights means they get sneaky with explosives. Cause and effect.

I never get why poeple have this saccharine riding of this 'bring them home' hobbyhorse everytime one of them trips over some semtex.

They are dumb mercenaries now. Some of them will occasionally get tagged, life's a bitch.
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From September 2014 to January/February 2015 I will not be using any English, nor reading any. As such, I won't be on here. PM at will, but I won't be checking/posting unless in emergencies. Certainly not for the first couple of months. Please berate me savagely if I break that rule...

[Catalyst]

[pa_broon74]

Except Afghanistan has no oil, in fact, it's pretty barren; it has nothing except opium.

The US needed to do something decisive, despite the fact the majority of the 9/11 hijacker's were Saudi national's, they zeroed in on Afghanistan because this was where they were trained (allegedly.)

Iraq is another matter which is miles away literally and figuratively from Afghanistan.

It is shit when soldiers get killed but it is an occupational hazard. I think people are more pissed at the government here than the root cause of why the army is operating in Afghanistan, that is what drives the calls to withdraw the army.


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Didn't catch anything.

[Catalyst]

The Taliban governed Afghanistan and only operate in Afghanistan and some parts of Pakistan, where as Al Qaeda don't have a country to call their 'home' and are a global organization. The Taliban will actually fight a "war", the Al Qaeda only really fight using terrorism which obviously isn't a conventional war.

Al Qaeda was also founded in the late eighties, the Taliban are thought to have formed around 1978-1980 when Afghanistan was occupied by the Soviets.
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SlimRick - I can cook really well - but it's a useless skill, as I'm not a woman and it's their fucking job!

[Tarmacsurfer]

Whilst I'm not exactly cheering the fact that people are dying, the papers are currently comedy gold. The whole raging debate about armour levels on patrol vehicles - usually based on ill educated rhetoric between under informed junior government types and clueless civilian single issue pressure group representatives - has been highly amusing.

Then again the name "Wooton Bassett" keeps making me smile. Makes me think of gay beagles for some reason.
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