XT660X vs DR-Z 400 SM: opinions please

[gusto]

I passed my test a couple of months ago and want a bigger bike. I want to keep the same dirt bike riding position of my previous XR125, without getting anything mental that's going to throw me into a tree.

I settled on a DRZ400SM and then today discovered that Suzuki has stopped making them (but obviously I can look for a second hand one). I was also looking at the Yamaha XT660X but it's more expensive and has lower fuel economy.

So my question is: which is better given that my needs are:

I want to be able to keep up on A road traffic but don't care about motorways (most of my riding is city but I would like to go on longer rides, and I don't want to immediately regret the 400).

That said, I don't want anything too bonkers at this stage

I'm after low running costs - fuel, servicing, insurance, etc.

I don't want to do all the servicing myself - low maintenance and reliability is important.

I want the bike to be light and not massively bulky - I have a "don't buy something you can't pick up when you drop it like an idiot" rule

So what do you think?

I'm erring towards waiting for a good 400SM to come up but tempted to rush out and get the 660 cos I can

Or maybe I've missed out a better option altogether?

Sorry, that was really freakin' wordy

[Dr. DaveJPS]

garth has an MZ bagira for sale that sound like what you're looking for.
____________________
"intelligent inattention is preferable to unintelligent tinkering"
www.davejps.com

[G]

First off, if you want low running costs, buying new seems silly - you'll have to add a decent depreciation 'pence per mile' cost to your fuel economy costs.

The XT is maybe slightly more powerful than the DRZ, but is also a lot heavier. The extra capacity should hopefully go to meaning it's a bit more reliable.

Both will be running out of puff on faster dual carrigeway A roads.

Were it me, I'd seriously consider a BMW G650Xmoto. This is a fair bit more powerful than the two you listed, so handles dual carrigeway speeds ok, it has a bit more weight than the DRZ and a lot less than the XT. It has 6000 mile service intervals on an engine with a good history.
The BMW is a bit more 'extreme', but far from a proper supermoto like a KTM SMR.

Alternatively, you could consider something like the DL650, presuming you don't need any of the advantages of a supermoto. Weighs similar to the XT, but with a much more sensible engine for the whole package.

[garth]

Pm sent.
____________________
You ain't a has been if you never was

[Alex A]

Have been considering a similar bike myself.

The DRZ is a little underpowered, but if you're happy with that then it looks superb in SM trim . It's also affordable, very well made, and generally a very cool bike (IMO). The XT660 is a lardy low powered bike that might as well be a 500 commuter.

The CCM R30/R31 can be had with low mileage (<5000) for very little money. It's well made, Suzuki engined, 660cc (IIRC) and bags of fun. More comfortable than the proper hardcore stuff too.

My money would go on a Honda XR650R. Reliable, good service intervals, look seriously mean, and run with the best. Supermoto conversion is common on these, as is tricked up suspension.

If it has to be new, KTM or Husqvarna is obviously the WTG
____________________
Current: Ducati Panigale R / Ducati Streetfighter S / Suzuki GSX-R1000 L5

[craigs23]

Funnily enough, I'm test riding both on Saturday. I'm veering towards the DRZ "on paper".

[gusto]

Thanks all - I was thinking the XT660 would be a bit heavy and slow. I'll look out for a tidy DRZ - in black, obviously

[G]

The DRZ will make even less power than the XT. While it may accelerate slightly quicker to start with, once at speed; power, not power-to-weight makes a much bigger difference on a bike.

I'm not aware the CCM R30 is that 'comfortable'. The later ones use the DR650 engine, which doesn't make much more peak power than the 400 e model, but does have a load more midrange. It definitely had better suspension than the Jap bikes.

XR650s tend to be a bit of 'hassle'. They are designed as competition bikes, so do have to be played with a bit. Need some weight and a reasonable technique to start them with the kicker (some have trouble with this). Official service intervals were pretty tight, I thought.
The new KTM and Huskys both have 3000 mile service intervals and cost lots, I'd go second hand and probably would go for the G650 if I was the OP (saying from experience as I have a newly-bought 690, though my needs were different).

[craigs23]

Just got back from my test riding.

The DRZ is a lot of fun - if you like your bikes being not too powerful that is. A nice step up from a 125, but runs out of puff around 80mph or so and quite twitchy on bypass stretches. I'd hazard a guess in a straight line the bike feels around RS125 level of performance - but whereas the stroker takes off the higher the revs get, the DRZ...erm, doesn't.

Stick to town work or bumpy backroads and the bike makes sense, punching out of corners with ease and offering good visibility over the top of cars. I tended to use most of the gearbox to keep the bike in its 'sweet spot' - up to around 2/3rds revs I'd guess (no rev counter). Brakes and suspension are very good, even with the miss matched tyres my test bike came with. Could always iron out the light front end with the suspension adjustment (and tyre change) available, but I guess that's some trade off with long travel suspension and light weight - I think on paper the DRZ's only about 20kgs more than my 125 - it certainly felt similar.

Unfortunately, I didn't think much of the XT660 I tested. More power and torque for sure, but I didn't like the extra weight and fueling around town. It's a better built bike though, with some nice details, better clocks, better saddle, bigger tank, etc. I guess it wasn't what I was looking for - I've got other bikes for longer distances and practical requirements.

So, I guess I'd sum up that the DRZ felt more like a toy - similar to my XR but with punch up to around 80mph, rather than 50 odd. Exactly what I was after trading my ER6 for, so subsequently, I pick up the 400 next weekend.

[ms51ves3]

Why is there no mention of the FMX650 in this thread?

[G]

Because it's also over-weight and under-powered?
Bit late for Craig I suspect, but if the DRZ-Sm is liked, the CCM404 is definitely worth a look. It weighs a bit less than the DRZ-SM, uses a slightly faster version of the same engine and has better suspension. It's also much easier to swap between supermoto and enduro wheels.

[gusto]

Thanks for coming back to post, craig - you've confirmed what I was thinking - that the DRZ is right for me. I'm going to stay with my XR through the winter and then get a DRZ in the spring

[thewildblue]

Why not a versys....great riding position and engine plus good handling as well !

[windy12]

Good bike very versatile but a jack of all trades and master of none.
The Versys is better for revving along straights, singles like the DRZ and XT should not be highly revved, gears should be changed up quickly to use their amazing torque.

I posted before but it didnt come up, if there are two i am sorry.
A BMW 650 is actually a 791cc, that will be why they have more power!!

The best round the doors Supermoto is a Husky, a Sunday blast machine going no more than 20-30 miles from home. A race machine around 100kg on the road, nothing will other than another race bike would touch it.

For a general purpose supermoto leaning bike the Xt660x, the X is important this bike is so different to the R or tenere, people get muddled between trail and supermoto on the road supermoto is something else if you can ride a bike, it is hard to beat, it goes much better than the stats lead you to believe the torque is staggering, on tight undulating roads you will pass sports bikes without any effort at all and only the wildest sportsbike rider will stay in front. That is tight twisting roads not sweeping roads, it is horses for courses.

Do not try an XT660 'R' and think you will have any idea at all what an X goes, stops or handles like, you may as well try a Vespa scooter as a comparison and i hired an R for a week abroad and i own an X so i know.

They just should not go like that they are only 48hp, 182kg the little excel rims and front brembo work brilliantly, the bike does between 120 miles and 190 miles before the fuel warning light comes on, depending where you are riding, how you are riding and if you have a pillion, 120 with a pillion is usual.

The DRZ is only better if you will go on tame offroad, if you try and do real offroad it will fall to pieces, if you try offroading with an XT660x you will either break bones just if the bike falls on you, shatter the bike to pieces or it will sink in the mud and you will need a crew to pull it out, they arent built to do the offroad part of Supermoto I talked for a while to some people who said they did offroad them but after a while it turned out they rode them down gravel tracks as none of the offroad routes i did on my Enduro registered with them.

The DRZ does not have enough tank range, is light for riding in crosswinds, is uncomfortable, hopeless for carrying a pillion any distance and is underpowed compared to the XT660x even though it looks ok on paper.

The XT660x is a better all round machine. For offroad the XT660R is ok, for an adventure 250 mile tank range, pannier up and go off in to the serious unkown a tenere is a good machine, all have the same motor but you wouldnt believe it if you rode them all.

I hope that is helpful.

[G]

Windy:
A BMW G650 uses the old F650 engine, not the new one which is a detuned version of the F800 twin. The G versions are in a relatively higher state of tune compared to the old F650.

A race Husky (SM450, SM510) and a SM610 are very different things.
The smaller CC bikes are race bikes with not much weight, the 610 comes in at around 136kg or so, if I remember. People have lived on the TE610 for six months at a time and more, taking in massive bits of the world, going on some very 'extreme' routes.
I don't think the Husky supermoto bikes are any better/worse than similar KTM, Husaberg, etc bikes.

I'm not sure why or how a XT660x will stay ahread of a sports bike on twisty roads with two similar riders. Weight is the same, suspension is a bit longer travel but I don't see why a similarly skilled sports bike rider would be left behind (unless they have no idea about counter steering, maybe).
I haven't ridden one, but most people I've talked to have said that they are pretty slow, etc. Basically, the only advantage I can see over something like a Hornet or SV650 is it has less power, which for me would probably make it more fun to thrash.

See the DRZ-s do fine off-road, definitely no problems with the E model. Believe plenty of people use lightly modified S models in the US because they can't get 'plates' for the E models. Again, plenty of people that have used them for long-term off-road trips, as well as enduros and even on motocross tracks (though obviously not an ideal choice when you get that serious.)

I really wouldn't choose the R or tenere for an off road adventure personally. I rode a KTM950 at the weekend which isn't too far off the weight of the R, but with better suspension. It was quite manageable, but then I've taken my zx9 down a similar lane and that was 'manageable' too.
And if I'm sticking to the road I'd go for a road bike.

[windy12]

It depends where you live and what the road types are like, if you are riding flowing A roads then it is obvious that a road bike, sports or other is going to be faster, that is what they are built for,but no way on tight twisting moorland roads a road bike is a fish out of water on those roads, the XT660X would be slower over that ground than an almost race spec supermoto as the power to weight is better on the likes of the Husky and the KTMs, but they would be useless unless someone met you with a jerry can of petrol as there arent petrol stations every 60-80 miles out in the sticks, we have to splash the XTs to the brim typically 50-60 miles in and often our fuel lights are on before we can fill up again, that is over yorkshire but worse in Northumberland. Larger capacity tanks are a fortune, £600 for the XT, I hate to think for a KTM.

The Husqvarna SM610 is a competition bike on the road, KTM have competition bikes you can buy, but the popular brands 690s and 990s etc commonly seen on the roads are built for the roads not the track so they arent as capable as the husky for pure blitz fun, the husky is supposed to do 110 miles to a tank but in reality does about 80, the same as the smaller capacity KTMs on the road.

You must have a good go on a supermoto on roads which suit them, either in the city or on tight twisting b and c roads, they do leave sports bikes standing on those roads, while still riding them safely, as you say you use almost all of the bikes power, it isnt thrashing them unless you linger at high revs, in too low a gear, with single you change up as quickly as possible unlike a three or four cylinder bike.

this is well documented though if you read other experienced riders reviews on supermotos in general, but also on the Xt660x, the Xt660x is a budget bike compared to the KTMs, the XT660xs can be upgraded in power and lightened but it is pointless as the tank range comes down to the same as the other bikes and if a big tank is fitted then the handling is affected while it burn the first extra 10 litres of petrol.

The XT in reality is nothing like what it looks like on paper, have a go on one and see for yourself. i dont sell them by the way!

[G]

I have actually done a lot of research on the subject of 650cc single trail style bikes for 'adventure touring'. I tend to be a bit of a 'geek' in this regards and definitely before I was going to spend the best part of £6k on a bike last year!
The SM610 /is/ a road bike in the same manner as the KTM690. It has 3000 mile service intervals and comes with all the road kit. It has a decent reputation for reliability.
The 610 has always been a heavier road-biased bike compared to their smaller capacity competition bikes.
The only company that makes competition bikes in this size (ignoring the 660SMC Factory KTM, which isn't too far off) is Husaberg, that for their previous models had 650cc versions of their enduro and supermotos. Erm and the Maico 2 strokes, of course .

Why is a sports bike a 'fish out of water' on tight twisting roads?
These are my favourite kind and a light weight low powered bike is an ideal weapon to have fun on them. However, stick me on a GSXR1000 that has a first gear which covers the entire range of five/six gears on a 'commutermoto' and I can guarantee I'll be faster.
If we were talking a decently light weight supermoto, then there's some situations where the really committed rider will be faster - but in my experience you've got push a lot more than I would on the road on any bike.
The only fun roads to ride around here are tight twisting ones really - all the A bigger roads are too full of cars and aren't particularly interesting.
The only real advantage I can see with a 'commutermoto' (aside from the impression that steering is quicker due to wider bars meaning less effort needed to turn - not an issue if you know to counter steer) is that the higher position can in some cases give you a better view to get observations of the road in earlier.

Have a look at my profile for a list of bikes I do and have owned.
I have had decent test rides of the TE610 and G650 by the way, also. I have ridden a decent variety of other bikes, including a few 'proper' supermotos (ie converted crosser, etc), as well as a few 'commutermotos', though not the 660, as I say.

[craigs23]

I have no impression that my DRZ turns in faster than my CBR600 did, it just does. Yeah, for sure, another rider could make a sports bike turn in a lot faster than I'm capable of; but I'm not another rider so that's pretty pointless. I guess the fact the bike weighs 130 odd kilos rather than 180+ has got something to do with it, as does the riding position that allows me to bully the bike a lot more when snapping it from side to side.

One thing to note is that I'm having to adapt my riding style quite a bit on the DRZ - especially in retaining some composure when the bike's at lean and getting more weight over the front than I'm used to. Has much less of that rolling around and scraping the crap out of things than the other bikes I've had over the years have.

Another major difference I've found with the DRZ over sportsbikes I've had - irrespective of it topping out at 90mph or so, I quite frankly, find it a lot more fun throwing it around and pinning the thing around corners than I did on something with fairings and clip ons. I haven't grinned so much in years - and there was me thinking I was done with mercilessly thrashing the crap out of road bikes. Every mini roundabout's a chance to see whether the rear tyre's scrubbed in yet, every crest a chance to see whether I can practice some wheelies, every humpback bridge some time to get some air. The bike just seems to be designed for this kind of malarky; I'm so going to get some points on my licence....

Did I mention I like the noise too?

I'm glad I bought the DRZ over the XT.

[G]

Swapping between bikes with wide bars and narrow bars in the past, I've often found myself riding like a bit of a twat when getting on a 'streetfighter' or similar; aggressively chucking the bike left and right "'cos I can".
Sitting down and thinking about it later, I realised that in most cases the biggest factor was the bars being wider. The same force at twice the distance (ok, not quite ) will apply double the torque to the front wheel, making counter steering feel a lot easier.
I find that having lived with bikes with both for some time, that same affect has gone mostly for me. If I think about it, I will happily put force into counter steering a sports bike.
On backroads, the speeds I ride don't need me to turn in any faster than gentle input on clip-ons generally, so it's a moot point.

To be fair, if just a faster turn-in was wanted (I tend to agree with your other points), while you found it faster after buying a new bike, a much cheaper and easier way would have been to spend a couple of hours 'playing' on a previous bike with the aim to get faster .

On track, I know I need to turn in faster (with matched faster mph), but that's proved quite a hard thing to try and train myself to do.

Oh and to justify my 'get an SV and restrict it comments' I often come out with:
https://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307965

[craigs23]

It's an interesting point, but the nearest comparison I have is between my Superfour and DRZ - the bars are about the same width, give or take 20mm or so. The DRZ is obviously a lot taller and lighter, but doesn't feel as if it requires as much effort to pitch it into a corner. Is more unstable at lean though and has none of that assured 'rolling' sensation I get from the heavier roadster.

However, the CBR600 I had felt faster steering than the Superfour (but requiring, or rather, feeling more natural with more lower body movement) despite its clipons and arse up riding position (relatively speaking).

[G]

There a lot of other factors to be fair - geometry etc play a big part too.
Sports bikes, especially modern ones, tend to have quite aggressive geometry. CBRs do tend to be a bit lazier (or 'more stable' if the magazine is being paid by Honda ).

While the difference in wheel sizes don't translate so much to tyres, a direct supermoto conversion often partly handles quickly because the front goes down to 17 from 21, while the rear goes down to 17 from 18/19, thus having the same affect as lifting the rear/dropping the front on a road bike, which is, of course a common and 'free' mod.

With just a race rear shock, my 675 is ridiculously quick turning if you want it be (at the expense of getting a wobble on, on the straights quite often!)

[craigs23]

[windy12]

re voice of reason, maybe you are interpreting information on paper only, as you say a bit of a geek, however you are way off the mark on your thoughts on bikes, reality proves it, not what we think.

Bikes are all made for different purposes, power, wheelbases their complete design is all for different purposes, the idea that a GSXR 1000 with the right gearing can beat any machine over any terrain is crazy.

I hope you do not find out the hard way following a Supermoto into a 90 degree bend.

The ideal way, money no object is to have the right bike for every situation, each type of bike being perfect its own setting. Supermotos are definately not the best at everything either.

You obviosly have no experience of four stroke singles, if you linger in a gear or approach the top of the revs before changing you will reduce your acceleration hugely and just knack up your bike, the power delivery is low and needs flicking up the gear quickly to get the quickest acceleration, even two strokes needed taking to the power bands and not to far above otherwise acceleration was lost, you are well off the mark with these comments.

I recommend you actually ride some, then comment, we have the bikes and do know, on paper and looking at Supermotos they just should not do what they do, mainly the performance must be down to a combination of torque and lean angle on the right roads, that is why Supermotos tend to race on parts of karting tracks for the tight bends, I would love to watch you take your Suzuki round one of those tracks and show them how it is done, it would be a comical video at the top of the biker charts for years.

I do understand why you are saying what you are saying, until I rode a Supermoto my brain would not have them handling and performing as they do, I however, listened to those that rode them, understood where they are good and bad, then took one to its perfect territory and rode it, as best I could, in the way that those who knew said they should be ridden and wow what an experience.

No trail version is anything like the Supermoto versions, so trying an adventure or trail bike has no bearing on the performance of the same engine and frame Supermoto.

Superbike riders that have ridden Supermotos have all said they are surprised, as I was, how they go, one nearly binned my mates and he is a blade man, he came back white. Try one first then come back and tell us about it, but dont ride it like a superbike quickly up and down a straight and a few 50-90mph bends.

If you can ride a 1000 quicker than anyone else over any terrain on any bike then you should be in bike racing, as they sometimes struggle to hit 250cc GP times on larger capacity machines, you would wipe the floor with everyone.

[windy12]

voice of reason, you are just winding me up, everything you own is light and flickable, light track day bikes and enduro/supermoto bikes.

You would be guessing about the superbike not our bikes. Cant put any name calling at the end otherwise i will get booted out!!

What are talking about large capacity road bikes for owning those????

[G]

No, I am not reply to 'wind you up', regardless of whether or not it is doing; I'm replying with my experiences.
The only people that have got banned have either been despite warnings for repeated incidents of general gross rudeness, or one for making up some rather serious 'character assassination' stories, which luckily a lot of other people on the forum knew to be untrue. So feel free to call names. However, personally, to my mind that's normally the sign that someone realises they're wrong .

I'll take it as said that you've realised that a lot of your penultimate post is irrlevent after reading my profile. I'm guessing you didn't read through /that/ thoroughly however - otherwise you'd have noted I also own a ZX9, which I actually use daily for commuting, though to be fair it's lightened, but when I've got the luggage full, only to the degree of a modern sports bike with a race can I suspect. And maybe the 675, thought it's not that heavy, we're still talking sports-bike; while I haven't ridden my one on the road, I have ridden another one on the road.
I've also added 'BMW R100' to the list of previously owned bikes, which is the heaviest bike I've owned (owned, not ridden) and I'd forgotten about when writing the profile.

Being 'a bit of a geek' also involves having blagged rides on loads of bikes and riding them with a bit of an 'analytical' bent at times. I've ridden quite a range of litre class sports bikes, though none of the really modern ones. What litre class sports bikes from the last ten years have you ridden?
My experiences are taken from seat-of-pants-reality, then backed up by the bits of paper, not the other way around. You'll notice I've also owned a KLR, which isn't too far off the XT I'm told.

I haven't claimed I would be faster on a sportsbike on /any/ surface. What I claimed was that I would be faster on British back roads and the only thing holding me back on the sports bike would probably be the worse visibility.
Have a look at the conditions on some of the roads on the Isle of Man - they still seem to do ok there!

For the record, I have raced on and off-road (though no supermoto yet, it is in the plans at some point), not amazingly successfully, but I had fun and learned from it.

Who said anything about gearing on the GSXR1000? My point was that it's got so much power that it's pretty irrelevent.
You better tell this bloke that he obviously couldn't do very well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpf-Lhc7cB0 (yes, he did actually do pretty well in the prologue.)

Here's some 'paper' to back up my experience:
KTM EXC:
https://www.barrettexhausts.com.au/html/html_images/ktm_525exc_dynochart.jpg
KTM 690:
https://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/jhee_02/july8moto400DynoRun2008017.jpg
XT660:
https://www.off-the-road.de/fileadmin/Redakteure/images/Diagramme/Dyno_KN_Deckel_XT-660.jpg
Even on the XT, at best you might want to change up very slightly early, but not by much.