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Coxyzxr |
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Coxyzxr Brolly Dolly
Joined: 22 May 2008 Karma :
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Posted: 23:58 - 01 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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Dex wrote: | My experience of global engineering (making broad statements based on nationalities) is the the country's culture reflects their approach.
Brits- in small scale we were, and possibly still are, some of the best in the world. F1 teams are still mostly British based, and our skill is high quality innovative work. It was mass production where the industry collapsed, we never had the culture to inspire big groups of production line workers to strive for quality.
USA- sadly they believed their own hype and recently went the way of UK in the 70s, especially the automotive industry.
Japan- the honour system is to thank for their high quality output. Every member of a factory takes pride in the product and strives to create the best output. Honda is the oddity in that it had a strong single leader, its why Honda's ethos is more driven than most- it had direction from a single guy with a single vision. That ethos continues and Honda continue to innovate. The class system and cultural belief in excellence (but humility, and accepting there are always ways to improve) are the reasons the Japanese bike industry slaughtered the Brits- in the 60s and 70s, we thought we were great, they knew they weren't, but wouldn't stop until they were.
China- every aspect of modern Chinese society follows the old communist belief that their way is best. The people are fed misinformation, disinformation and lies. The news tells them their country is better than all others, so the mindset is that they are the best. A Japanese engineer running a factory in China would soon fall on his sword as he realised that years of indoctrination had taken away the ability of his workers to accept the scope and need for continual improvement.
North and South Korea - see China/Japan. |
This is the post that should end this thread. ____________________ **WAS FITTED "WRONG WAY ROUND" !** CANT ACCOUNT FOR THE STUPID ! |
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londonbill |
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londonbill Banned
Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 00:25 - 02 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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Dex wrote: | Japan- the honour system is to thank for their high quality output. Every member of a factory takes pride in the product and strives to create the best output. Honda is the oddity in that it had a strong single leader, its why Honda's ethos is more driven than most- it had direction from a single guy with a single vision. That ethos continues and Honda continue to innovate. . |
Wow
I think you've been watching too many Honda promotional videos.
I travel to Japan a lot in the course of my work, and trust me, there are a lot of myths that the Japanese are keen to perpetuate, but have little basis in fact.
I have no axe to grind.
I have a lot of Japanese contacts and friends, and respect greatly their achievements, but the fact you have written that drivvle shows you do not know what you're talking about.
Many Japanese believe that we dress in pin stripe suits and wear bowler hats to go to work in.
It's the same sort of thing.
Dex wrote: | China- every aspect of modern Chinese society follows the old communist belief that their way is best.. |
A far as I know, Communism is not the only ideology who's masters believe their way is best.
Are you saying that our leaders have not in the past, promoted capitalism as the best way.
Of course they have.
Every political ideology believes their way is best.
Communism does not have the monopoly on arrogance I'm sorry to say.
Dex wrote: | The people are fed misinformation, disinformation and lies. The news tells them their country is better than all others, so the mindset is that they are the best. . |
And you believe that we are not fed misinformation, lies and deceipt?
Come on.
We may not live under a military regime, but nevetheless, we are lied too and deceived continually by our leaders.
To believe otherwise would be very naive.
Dex wrote: | A Japanese engineer running a factory in China would soon fall on his sword as he realised that years of indoctrination had taken away the ability of his workers to accept the scope and need for continual improvement.. |
"Fall on his sword".
There you go again with your outdated preconceptions about Japanese society.
Oh and you don't believe Honda produce bikes in China.
Think again.
Word of advice.
Try actually experiencing the cultures you are claiming to know so well, and travel to those countries rather than using Honda advertising literature, and your biggotted preconceptions as a basis for your beliefs. |
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Kal |
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Kal World Chat Champion
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N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty Banned
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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motobiker |
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motobiker Nitrous Nuisance
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Posted: 15:55 - 08 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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The OP is being just a little naughty.. and misleading.
I just looked at Honda Uks current Motorcycle website.. and as far as i can see. the CG125 doesn't appear in the 125 section.
The factory he mentions... I looked at their website too and they don't make a CG125. there isn't one in their current production. They have 3 'scooters' and 1 'traditional looking' bike.. and it isn't a CG125.
they make a CGL-125.. which looks rather different to any CG I've seen in recent years. for a start.. it looks very much like it has a drum front brake.. I would imagine.. its for the chinese market and maybe some other far eastern markets. And so has nothing whatsoever to do with the CG that was on sale here in years past.
If any of these chinese bikes enter the UK.. they most certainly won't be official. And so will have no 'Honda' back-up.
here it is:
https://www.wuyang-honda.com/english/photos2/CGL125.jpg
Apologies if someone else has already pointed this out. ____________________ 1999 R1100GS + 2006 F800S
(Nottingham)
Sooner or later opinions fade and the name on the tank matters not. I think that happens somewhere between 3rd and 4th gear. Enjoy the ride... everything else takes care of itself. |
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itsallgood |
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itsallgood Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 28 Aug 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 18:59 - 08 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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I don't get this crap. The japanese have a well deserved reputation for building reliable / long lasting machines, and yes this will draw in customers.
BUT the key difference between the UK and most other european markets is that we mostly buy bikes as a hobby and not purely because we need cheap transport.
It follows then that we will buy bikes WE LIKE. The fact that a fair few of those purchases are japanese says more about the quality or desirability of the bikes than anything else.
But looking purely at my workplace, there are two harleys, a few triumphs, a royal enfield, a KTM and a smattering of BMWs.
The only jap bikes are an xj600 (an unloved second bike belonging to the enfield owner) and a cbr125.
Hopefully my first bike will be road legal next week, and its a cg125. Bought because I know its history, its a 1993 and never missed a beat. Left outside by its previous owner, with only basic servicing and it starts on the first kick everytime.
I don't care what it says on the tank - it starts, stops, and performs like it was when it came out of the factory. It was built in brazil so really apart from the brand and the design its a Brazilian bike.
I certainly didn't buy it just because its jap.
My dad switched from brit bikes to jap bikes back in the day because they were better for everyday use. He has no blind love for them and yearns for a Modern triumph now they make half decent bikes again. |
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hmmmnz |
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hmmmnz Super Spammer
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Humptybackedf... |
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Humptybackedf... Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 00:05 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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good grief, what a great deal of capitals and bold type in this thread, sounds like history does indeed repeat itself, I can remember a time when Japanese bikes were regarded with the same derision that the current crop of cheapy Chinese offerings are now, having said that, I did stop once for a young lad on one of the aforementioned cg125 chinese copys, stuck at the side of the road, seems his swingarm spindle had snapped in half,,,,,,,,the bike was 6 months old, I leave you to draw your own conclusions
,,,I myself, am beyond all reasonable hope, as I ride a Buell ____________________ as ye sow,,,, |
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MarJay |
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MarJay But it's British!
Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Karma :
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Posted: 00:24 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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Humptybackedfecksausage wrote: | good grief, what a great deal of capitals and bold type in this thread, sounds like history does indeed repeat itself, I can remember a time when Japanese bikes were regarded with the same derision that the current crop of cheapy Chinese offerings are now, having said that, I did stop once for a young lad on one of the aforementioned cg125 chinese copys, stuck at the side of the road, seems his swingarm spindle had snapped in half,,,,,,,,the bike was 6 months old, I leave you to draw your own conclusions
,,,I myself, am beyond all reasonable hope, as I ride a Buell |
My Buell ate its own piston rings, and is still better built and more reliable than the average chinese bike... ____________________ British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another. |
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londonbill |
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londonbill Banned
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Posted: 02:06 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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rob yarrr wrote: | tut another thread about a guy trying to justify his crap bike he's bought |
And there's another pillock who's obviously only been riding a year or two, but thinks he knows it all.
When you've a bit more experience, you might be able to offer and objective opinion, rather than an opinion based upon what your chav mates spout after 10 pints of lager.
MarJay wrote: | My Buell ate its own piston rings, and is still better built and more reliable than the average chinese bike... |
My Chinese bikes been going three years and is coming up to 20,000 miles without a single issue.
It's never eaten it's ring, but you say your Buell is more reliable.
Hmmm.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
If the internet had been around in the late 60's, there would have been exactly the same bunch of blinkered ignorant old tossers spouting exactly the same ill informed bollocks about Jap bikes as we see here with Chinese.
The really funny thing is, that every person who has pronounced their hatred for all things Chinese, have at least half a dozen home appliances that were made there, including the monitor they're reading this on.
Last edited by londonbill on 02:13 - 09 Nov 2010; edited 1 time in total |
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N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty Banned
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londonbill |
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londonbill Banned
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N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty Banned
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Humptybackedf... |
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Humptybackedf... Two Stroke Sniffer
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Kal |
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Kal World Chat Champion
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spetom |
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spetom Trackday Trickster
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 11:31 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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motobiker wrote: | The OP is being just a little naughty.. and misleading.
I just looked at Honda Uks current Motorcycle website.. and as far as i can see. the CG125 doesn't appear in the 125 section.
The factory he mentions... I looked at their website too and they don't make a CG125. there isn't one in their current production. They have 3 'scooters' and 1 'traditional looking' bike.. and it isn't a CG125. |
Talking out of your arse, why do the Jap zealots feel the need to lie to protect their delicate bike egos?! This is data from the Honda world website:
Quote: | Wuyang-Honda Motors (Guangzhou) Co., Ltd.
Established: July 1992
Location: Xintang Industrial Area of Zeng Cheng, Guangzhou, China
Capital Investment: US$30 million
Capitalization Ratio: 50% Honda Motor Co., Ltd.
50% Guangzhou Motors Group Company
Representative: YANG Dadong, Chairman
Chiaki KATO, President
Business: Production and sales of motorcycles
Employment: Approx. 3,300 associates (as of February 2006)
Annual Capacity: 1,000,000 units
Production Models: @Stream (125cc scooter), SCR100 (100cc scooter), MCR125, GL125, CGL125, CG125 (125cc motorcycle)
Spacy 100 (100 cc scooter for export) |
..and yes today Wuyang makes all the CG125s.
MarJay wrote: | My Buell ate its own piston rings, and is still better built and more reliable than the average chinese bike... |
Based on what experience? I've had 2 Chinese and 3 Japanese Chineses (2x CG, 1 new, 1 old + Wuyang) my 2nd Chinese 5 year old BT125-5 was miles ahead of all of them and 14000 on the clock.
Quote: | all i have to say to allyou have said in this entire thread is summed up in this short
youtube clip |
Truesay. Mainly from the zealots who are finding anything but their status quo hard to swallow
I own a CB500 now which I thought would disprove what I've seen regarding Jap and their Chinese affiliates 125s. But it doesn't while internals might be ok, engineering design good (from what I've read only) and user end stuff looks good and solid, there are many many corners cut in the construction of it, which I've noticed while taking it apart (to my annoyance). Wait that can't be possible it's Japanese? Sorry but my Chinese BT125-5 had better screws and was easier to disassemble, never remember crapping myself worrying if a screw was going to strip like I do with the CB 500.
(P.S All CB500s for the EU were assembled in Italy from a variety of world parts, no prizes for guessing where most of the parts came from).
If the Jap lot are going to start screaming about endurance and reliability lets stop it right here. The Soviet bikes, Dnepr, Urals etc. of the 50s and 60s fullstop the most reliable and enduring bikes ever created (n.b. copies of the german WW2 BMW).
I've seen battered Urals in Poland that have been stood outside for 40 years, still only slightly rusty (soviet chroming + painting being OTT), and they start every time not at -5 or -10 but at -20 or less degrees. Whatever the weather, no matter what you throw at the engines whether it's decades of abuse or cooking oil instead of engine oil they go on for ever. Sorry a Jap fullstop will not deal with this.
If I was going on a world tour I would take a Soviet bike not a Jap.
I'm not party to any motorcycle group, nothing against Harleys, BMWs, REs, Japs, Classics, Soviets etc. What I am against is the motomania snobbery (& not to mention self-hating British) which in this country is predominantly with the Jap fanatic (strictly not the Jap normal users) group, a group which even the government are aware of and have made police guidelines for. Ever been stopped for a routine check of your bike on the continent, no it only happens in the UK.
I'm tired of this thread, and the ad nauseam biggotry of the Jap fanatics who think they know but really have no idea.
Last edited by spetom on 11:50 - 09 Nov 2010; edited 3 times in total |
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superdaaan |
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superdaaan Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 11:42 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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When I bought my Sanya, I test rode (ridden, whatever!) loads of bikes and the Sanya seemed the best out of the lot. It was bulletproof, engine was amazing, started with electric first time, everytime with no choke. Parts could be a pain, and my local garage ripped me off come MOT time, but it was a little cracker. Out of all the manufacturers I believe Sanya are one of the better ones, but that's not saying much!
I got a Kymco Pulsar as my next bike (I binned the Sanya twice, I decided I wanted one with straight handle bars!) which is Taiwanese and supposedly of better quality, I have had it one month and my brake light has blown, not a great omen. Luckily it's under warranty for two years via my Kwak dealership.
Long story not so short, I think my Sanya was a better bike. HOWEVER after my test I will only buy Jap, I know the Chinese don't generally do bigger CC bikes, but I like the thought of my frame not snapping on th m'way as I observe the speed limit of 70mph.
If you're on a budget, and new to biking and more importantly don't intend to keep your 125 very long I think Chinky bikes are great, just don't expect it to last until it's first MOT!! ____________________ If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I would fart. |
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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spetom |
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spetom Trackday Trickster
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 12:19 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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G wrote: |
The details of the factory you have seems to be from 2006.
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Correct
G wrote: |
Did you buy your CB500 new?
Are you comparing it with a similar age and used Chinese bike?
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Correct, it's old about 15 years I did mention this in my Hondas defence on another thread, even so some of the elements are unacceptably poor quality and it's to do with the metals and not the age.
G wrote: |
From what I've seen the soviet bikes aren't amazingly reliable, merely they are fairly easily bodgable and the owners expect to be bodging them.
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I don't know about the newer ones, the old ones are real bullets, a lot of their troubles start from owners bodging like you put it.
G wrote: |
You say your second Chinese bike was ahead of them - suggesting the previous one was actually significantly worse quality.
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The new CG I had was a year or so old, it was a worse ride than the old one having worrying cornering and even the Chituma rode better (worst piece of crap ever created), I was expecting a jump in quality etc. after hearing everyone bang on about Jap stuff it, it was a huge disappointment but in it's defence I didn't have to do much tinkering on it.
Quote: |
Just that the majority of them are (do you disagree with this?)
Similarly that while they may have a good reputation in the future, their poor reputation now, as with the Japenese some years ago, is justified (do you disagree with this?) |
I don't disagree that many chinese bike are crap, what I'm saying is that Jap bikes aren't that much better (in the 125 range), and that some Chinese bikes are better than the Jap 125s sorry however unacceptable that sounds, but this has been my experience.
Getting a jap is like going to McDonalds you know what you are getting, but thats it.
Quote: |
Do you consider me one of these 'jap fanatics' because I criticise Chinese bikes?
Perhaps you should point out the specific people to make it clearer? |
No I don't consider anyone to be a Jap fanatic (regardless if they love Jap bikes, I also like some Jap bikes), if they can stop for a second and think laterally or outside the box, not taking anything as a given.
Criticism or speculation of anything is welcome, it's the fullstop attitude of "Jap is best, fullstop" that is fanaticism, just as saying "Harley is best, fullstop" is or "BMW is best, fullstop" is, and I've come up against this wall several times even though I am and have been a Jap bike owner!
This thread is less about Chinese bike and more about the Jap attitude, I'm trying to show that actually in the 125 range they are a lot closer than most snobs like to think, and that there are believe it or not many Chinese that are better than Japs in the 125 range.
It's to do with the prominent Jap bike attitude and Jap supersport culture in the UK. If what I'm saying is not true, why is Britain the only government in Europe that has legislation for the sport motorcycle user group (and that means Japanese)? You don't get stopped on the continent by the police on your bike for a routine check it only happens in the UK.
A counter example I know of is Belgium where there are many Jap sports enthusiasts, but no engrained culture of "Japanese uber alles" that spans the country, hence no legislation on sports motorcyclists. In Belgium a Jap bike is nothing special, over there the snobbery is about British bikes!
It's almost like because Britain had such a succesful motorcycle industry once, it got hit hard by clever Japanese competition which has engrained itself in the self-hating British psyche and this goes beyond the motorcycle industry. Probably why the rest of the world predominantly loves British classics over Jap stuff but only in Britain is there a small pocket of classic lovers left (albeit also at times snobs)...
...and lets not forget in the 50s and 60s the Japs were copying everything.
Last edited by spetom on 12:47 - 09 Nov 2010; edited 4 times in total |
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 12:35 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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As your details are from 2006, does it seem reasonable to claim the other poster didn't know what they were talking about, when the facts you display are rather out of date and they referenced ones on the factories website that we would guess are a bit more up to date?
Did you know the history of your poorly riding CG?
I can remember seeing a 23 stone bloke on a SR125. Any prolonged exposure to that kind of absuse is likely to ruin the springs of any such bike, for example .
Quote: |
I don't disagree that many chinese bike are crap, what I'm saying is that Jap bikes aren't that much better, and that some Chinese bikes are better than the Jap 125s sorry however unacceptable that sounds, but this has been my experience. |
So your are basing your views on this experience, which is statistically a tiny and insignificant sample?
Does that seem reasonable to you (it does to Londonbill, I know, but we all know about him .)
Generally to me it looks like you're one of the "I had a Chinese bike and it was ok" Chinese bike snobs .
The 'Jap is the best ok' attitude seems to be mostly coming from you overlaying it on other people.
You, I think, do agree that overall they are better in terms of quality, which was what people generally mention.
Go on, name some 'Jap Fanatics', because I know a lot of people posting on this thread have and have had a varied and colourful motorcycle ownership history.
Quote: | It's to do with the prominent Jap bike attitude and Jap supersport culture in the UK. If what I'm saying is not true, why is Britain the only government in Europe that has legislation for the sport motorcycle user group (and that means Japanese)? You don't get stopped on the continent by the police on your bike for a routine check it only happens in the UK. |
Sorry, so sports motorcycles can't be Italian, German or British?
Compare Britain to Germany, say, you'll find a lot more 'tits' on sports bikes here. Further, can you detail the research behind your claim that the UK is the only country in Europe with such legislation.
Further, could you detail the legislation you're referring to. |
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spetom |
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spetom Trackday Trickster
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Posted: 12:57 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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G wrote: | Did you know the history of your poorly riding CG?
I can remember seeing a 23 stone bloke on a SR125. Any prolonged exposure to that kind of absuse is likely to ruin the springs of any such bike, for example . |
It had no abuse, my experience of the poor handling is the same as others on review centre. It was also the same on the Wuyang both bikes were basically brand new. The old CG which was abused handled much better.
G wrote: | So your are basing your views on this experience, which is statistically a tiny and insignificant sample?
Does that seem reasonable to you (it does to Londonbill, I know, but we all know about him .)
Generally to me it looks like you're one of the "I had a Chinese bike and it was ok" Chinese bike snobs . |
You all know about him? I've noticed a trend in the people who have never actually owned a chinese bike saying they are crap, and something totally different from people who have owned them. There are 4 people on this thread including myself who've actually owned Chinese bikes and have had good things to say about some of them despite what the crowd have to say.
Quote: |
Sorry, so sports motorcycles can't be Italian, German or British?
Compare Britain to Germany, say, you'll find a lot more 'tits' on sports bikes here. Further, can you detail the research behind your claim that the UK is the only country in Europe with such legislation.
Further, could you detail the legislation you're referring to. |
Radio 4 is my companion while I'm working, thats where I first came across this information discussing motorcycle culture in the UK, but when I get a moment I will find you the exact legislation. |
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G The Voice of Reason
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N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty Banned
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Posted: 13:53 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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fair enough you love the chinese bikes
lets see what you say after the winter ____________________ '00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011
Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 14:30 - 09 Nov 2010 Post subject: |
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FurfukSAKE Tom!
You are at it again!
Returning to your original argument, as though it had never been shown to be unsupportable, or that you had admitted all the flaws in it, and the contraditions you had offered, and that a new twist, this time that the CB500 you have just bought isn't as great as you had hoped, and caried on as though you have been right all along, and that makes you some oricle of motorcycling, in the face of people who have infinitely more experience, but suych deeply ingrained predjudice as to blind them to your genius!!
Sorry kidda, but you are still talking a load of crap!
Reliable Dnjnipnjnekiughkjhg jh however they bloody spell it! Now your leaving la-la land and entering utter delusion!
(One, and it was not the last, did not endear itself to me trying to get a bludy AA truck out to recover me on it some years ago... "its not in my data-base, can you spell it for me?".... "I cant even prenouce it, let alone spell it, but I'll give it a go... H-E-A-P-O-S-H-I-T-R-U-S-K-I-T-H-I-N-G"... which didnt get any better when Mr Angry Mechanic turned up in his yellow van, and started ranting that it had a side car, and how was he supposed to get THAT on his tail lift! Worse STILL when they sent out a VERY NICE chap with a wrecker, who reared friesians, who all had names & personalities you know, I had to sit next to in his cab, in my leathers.... with him patting my knee for emphasis on the FOUR fucking hour journey back!!!!!!!!! every time he told an amusing anecdote about one of his dairy cows!)
Shut UP for gawds sake! All you are doing is proving what a know nothing twonk you are, and its getting to the point that another ride in that ruddy freisian rearing recovery drivers truck would be more enlightening and slightly less tortiouse!
Go do something useful like grease the fifteen year old floast pins in your brake calipers before they sieze... NOT becouse they are a shit Japanese design, but becouse they are fifteen years old and wear and corrossion takes its toll on ANY bike, but all year budget commuters more so! ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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