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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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 Posted: 13:22 - 02 Sep 2010  Post subject: |
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| Cheeseybeaner wrote: | | Quote: | IF the Japs had help, or started by copying Western designs; it took them barely SEVEN YEARS to surpass thier teachers, and start pushing the boundires of the technology they had ever further.
The Chinese and Korean start-ups are a very different kettle or herring to the postwar Nips.
And it ought to be noted, that when the Japanese started selling bikes in the west, they were NOT 'cheap'.
They were well priced against thier competition, but in 1970, a Honda CB125S was NOT a 'cheap' rival to a BSA Bantum, it was more expensive! Likewise a Yamaha YDIS 250 learner legal was more expensive than a BSA C15 250 learner legal. The Jap bikes were lined up against the 'exotics', bikes like the Italian Armacchi's or Ducati Desmo-singles, or the spanish hi-po two strokes, which they strove to out-perform, as well as out-price.
There were always 'cheaper' bikes than the Japs offered. |
Not really sure about that. Italian firms were offering four cylinder dohc bikes long before the japanese were, obviously the japs were able to market and sell their bikes far better to a mass market than was the case with lower volume Italian machines.
It has to be remembered as well that the jap firms only became successful in racing after Ernst Degner defected from MZ and took their secrets to Suzuki.
Until then they were very uncompetitive.
They obviously knew how to make exotic things more accessible through mass production and targetting world markets, something which isn't true of some of the smaller makers who were there a little earlier but didn't want to or didn't know how to capitalise on what they had. |
The Honda 750 'four' was released in 1969/70, but there are plenty of examples of four pot bikes dating back to antiquity, and the 750 'Four' was only SOHC.
I think it was about 1975 that MV Augusta offered their DOHC 750 shaft-drive' 'four' to the public, by which time Kawasaki's 1973 Z1 had provided a DOHC four to the buying public.
The earlier DOHC bikes from Itally were mainly singles or twins.
Benelli were the only wop mark to really favour the four, and thier bikes significantly came after Honda's small bore fours, and were roundly slated for being 'clones' of the Honda CB500F.
Sie 750, rushed into manufacture ahead of the CBX-6, by about 6 months was essentially one and a half Benelli 504's!
Ernst Degner's defection to Suzuki in I think 1964 (OTMH) took Suzuki from a back-marker on the GP grid to a front runner. BUT Yamaha were already there, maybe not fronting the grid, but certainly showing the promice of the hi-po 2T.
Would have to check the actual dates and stuff to be certain, but in general, YES, Japs took the higher technology of the exotics and made it cheap enough for the average joe to buy, in a production bike, but at the same time, they were also pushing the boundries of technology ahead of them.
They weren't copying Italian racers and selling them for the road; they were competing with them on the track on equal terms, and selling bikes for the road with the technology that experience gave them.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Cheeseybeaner |
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Cheeseybeaner
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| Posted: 18:52 - 02 Sep 2010 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Honda 750 'four' was released in 1969/70, but there are plenty of examples of four pot bikes dating back to antiquity, and the 750 'Four' was only SOHC.
I think it was about 1975 that MV Augusta offered their DOHC 750 shaft-drive' 'four' to the public, by which time Kawasaki's 1973 Z1 had provided a DOHC four to the buying public.
The earlier DOHC bikes from Itally were mainly singles or twins.
Benelli were the only wop mark to really favour the four, and thier bikes significantly came after Honda's small bore fours, and were roundly slated for being 'clones' of the Honda CB500F.
Sie 750, rushed into manufacture ahead of the CBX-6, by about 6 months was essentially one and a half Benelli 504's!
Ernst Degner's defection to Suzuki in I think 1964 (OTMH) took Suzuki from a back-marker on the GP grid to a front runner. BUT Yamaha were already there, maybe not fronting the grid, but certainly showing the promice of the hi-po 2T.
Would have to check the actual dates and stuff to be certain, but in general, YES, Japs took the higher technology of the exotics and made it cheap enough for the average joe to buy, in a production bike, but at the same time, they were also pushing the boundries of technology ahead of them.
They weren't copying Italian racers and selling them for the road; they were competing with them on the track on equal terms, and selling bikes for the road with the technology that experience gave them. |
They introduced a dohc four cylinder bike in the late 60s before Honda introduced their sohc 750 four aimed at capturing the American market.
Obviously the fact that they cost nearly three times as much rather limited its appeal, but then MV Agusta were never intending to produce cheap accessible bikes through mass production.
But they were more technically advanced at the time.
Degner defected to Suzuki in 1961, the next year Suzuki won the 50cc gp title!
https://www.khulsey.com/motorcycles/vintage_motorcycle_mv_agusta.html
[/url] |
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calyx
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stuartadair
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| LordShaftesbu... |
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LordShaftesbu...
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G
The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 22:25 - 03 Sep 2010 Post subject: Re: Chinese bikes & the Great Japanese Brainwash |
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What do you consider worth getting excited about, then?  |
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| Ariel Badger |
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Ariel Badger
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| LordShaftesbu... |
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LordShaftesbu...
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G
The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 10:03 - 04 Sep 2010 Post subject: Re: Chinese bikes & the Great Japanese Brainwash |
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Which bits of the daytona 'excite' you, then  .
As I've often said for other bikes - for the riding you could get a very similar feel by getting a Jap 4, then adding a lower rev limiter and extra weight; then maybe dropping the bars a bit for a less comfortable riding position.
None of those differences really equate to 'character' - it just seemed to be a copy they hadn't made much effort over.
The BMW is an interesting choice - To me I saw it as another 'first' R1 or GSXR1000 - it's moved the game on, but along the same lines pretty much. Apparently they bought a couple of 05/06 GSXR1000s and tried to make them better, basically.
For me, I would include the new BMW, but purely because it IS even more of the same - though I wouldn't choose it for fun.
Otherwise, I think I'd have to head to the off road genre - Maico 700 and KTM150 both seem interesting (both 2 strokes), Highland adventure bike and possibly the new Triumph adventure bike, but I rather suspect I'm going to be bitterly disapointed with that one  . |
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| LordShaftesbu... |
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LordShaftesbu...
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G
The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 12:57 - 04 Sep 2010 Post subject: |
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Oops, my fault - I see you were quoting the 'supersport' bit - I thought we were on the 'superbike' section.
I thought it was more a case that the majority of British Magazine reviews placed it at the top - but then plenty seemed to be doing so before they'd even ridden it .
Certainly as far as riding goes, I'd say the 675 has matched up to the competition by adopting the same ('bland') principals.
If the adventure bike does manage to not weigh more than the F800GS and isn't too far off the 990 as far as off-road performance goes, it'll definitely be interesting. |
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| Cheeseybeaner |
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Cheeseybeaner
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| Cheeseybeaner |
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Cheeseybeaner
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| Posted: 15:53 - 04 Sep 2010 Post subject: |
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| G wrote: | Oops, my fault - I see you were quoting the 'supersport' bit - I thought we were on the 'superbike' section.
I thought it was more a case that the majority of British Magazine reviews placed it at the top - but then plenty seemed to be doing so before they'd even ridden it .
Certainly as far as riding goes, I'd say the 675 has matched up to the competition by adopting the same ('bland') principals.
If the adventure bike does manage to not weigh more than the F800GS and isn't too far off the 990 as far as off-road performance goes, it'll definitely be interesting. |
Well the term 'superbike' term doesn't really mean a great deal these days as the performance threshold was established quite a long time ago. The term superbike is a little dated really and belongs far more to the 70s more than today where virtually every large sports bike can manage silly 0-60s and top 160mph.
High performance has become the norm and no longer impresses the way it used to when the term first came into use. |
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Cheeseybeaner
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G
The Voice of Reason
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| Posted: 18:26 - 04 Sep 2010 Post subject: |
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I take 'superbike' from racing classes - superbike is up to a 1000cc bike or a 1200cc twin. Supersport is a 600cc class, which includes 675cc triples and 750cc twins. I'd still probably class the 848 as 'supersport class', though it is rather cheating with an engine up to the size of a previous Ducati superbike pretty much.
I do actually think that buying local does make sense for various reasons, if people state this; then fair enough. Sadly I'm generally selfish in this regards and I'd prefer to spend my money on what ever best suits the bill, regardless of nationality.
It's interesting to see that in France the vast majority of cars are French; which may explain why they still have a good number of motoring firms.
(Oh, and for the record; I do own a Triumph Daytona 675 ). |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 12:52 - 05 Sep 2010  Post subject: |
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OK, so spetom has popped in, left seven messages, all on the same thread he started, promoting chiniese takaways, then dissapeared into the etha!
Ah, yes! School started back this week, didn't it?!?
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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LordShaftesbu...
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| truslack |
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truslack
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| spetom |
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spetom
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| Posted: 12:36 - 22 Sep 2010 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Err been trying to untangle the 'thrust' of you post.... and the reason you felt the need to post it for? |
I get tired of hearing the Japanese mantra, which are actually just made in China. This is the thrust.
| Quote: | And... there DO seem to be rather a few flaws in there, that could be exploited to undermine the 'authority' you proffess to promote Chinese bikes by. |
It is when I was sent to China 3 times by the people I work for, that I then stumbled across the truth with my own eyes, corroborated by other sources.
| Quote: | Firs of all, your qualification as a rider...... you are still on 125's, which you admit to.
Suggests that you are probably young, and have not been riding very long. |
I have an A2 done last year, I'm 28 have been riding since 17-18 on 125s, 2 CBTs + a lot abroad in France where you don't need a licence to drive a 125 in the countryside. I have driven a car since 18.
| Quote: | Then there is your claim to have owned numerouse chinese bikes.....
either way NONE of it really adds much aothority to your suggestions.
You also pose some intreguing pseudo engineering and business arguments.
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I'm not going to argue about this, investigate and see for yourself. I am no expert on bikes but I have had a lot of experience on 125s and I think my post indicates as such.
| Quote: | Not going to challenge what you have said; motives behind it are probably 'reasonable' there IS a lot of predjudice against Chinky-bikes, and it isn't REALLY fiar to them, BUT a LOT of the critasisms against them DO have a lot of validity. |
Isn't that just what I pointed to in my post?
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Next, you come over as a school-boy, with an axe to grind. A little knowledge. Possibly some work experience in engineering and a LOT of reading of second or third hand opinion and report, but actually not a lot of REAL extensice authoratitive 1st hand knowledge.
Be worth listening to his opinion a little, rather than challenging it.....
BUT an introduction would have been polite....
And a little back-ground to support the authority of your aspersions, would, I think go a long way to avoiding people just taking you to pieces, becouse they can, rather than actually considering what you have to say..... which, put with SLIGHTLY more reverence to the audience its aimed at, PROBABLY has quite a few very valid points.. |
I believe I have been polite, but I'm not going to give anyone any grandiose introductions, reverence or audience and neither do I expect any so people are welcome to "take me to pieces, because they can" as you put it, it's the internet not the British Motor Show. I likewise enjoy the "school boy" quotes, which indicates to me that I have hurt some Japanese brainwashed egos, if this is you just stop for a second and think what exactly is it that you are defending so vigorously?
It actually doesn't matter who I am or what my experience is, it is what I'm trying to show you = don't take my word for it search for yourself, a little bit of questioning and common sense is all that is needed for the truth to start unravelling behind the mirage. I am not promoting Chinese bikes I think my post makes that quite clear. But I am putting into perspective the serial brainwashing that has occured with Japanese bikes.
Will I buy a Chinese bike again? No. Will I buy a Japanese bike in the future? Yes quite possibly but I will be under no delusions about it being some uber alles machine. Of course if you get a full Honda rip off service every 6 months nothing will go wrong so much for reliability. Give me a good Triumph from 1941-48 and believe me it will be just as reliable if not more than a modern Japanese and cost peanuts to service at home and please please stop moaning about the 50s-60s British motorcycle reliability, we all know the British motorcycle started a steady decline in the late 40s.
Everyone buying British classics is ridiculous, however my point illustrates something simple regarding Japanese bikes and that is "WAKE UP" and understand the hype and brainwashing you have allowed yourself to be conned by. While Honda for example do make some good bikes they also have a very good marketing strategy, more so as every block head is like a walking virus repeating the mantra "Japanese...Japanese" over and over, enough to make walking into a motorcycle shop make you feel sick. A bit like Toshiba and reliable laptops, remember 2001-2002? Started off reliable with amazing advertising about reliability and durability, Toshiba was the mantra for laptops, 6 years down the line all their new laptops did was break, only reliable when serviced every 6 months.
Last edited by spetom on 21:09 - 22 Sep 2010; edited 3 times in total |
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The Voice of Reason
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 219 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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