Useless starter :|

[skatefreak]

https://thisisthestoryof.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/i-mustache-you-a-question.jpg?w=350&h=350

But seriously,
I am perplexed!

This NSR, it does strange things...

Bump starts a treat, litterally half a push and dump the clutch in first and it fires up on the first compression...

Buuutttt.... press the starter button and its a different story (thus why my battery needed some attention, i usually fanny about with it every now and then trying to start the bike), and the starter will turn over the engine fine but it wont fire....

Now someone explain that to me?

The ONLY difference is the starter is turning it and i cant see how that stops it from firing...

Is there anything electrical wise (honda garage lady suggested a while ago that there was a component in the starter that would cause this, but then she suggested i strip it myself to save money so i think she must have been confused because for the life of me I'v not come accross such a component!).

I managed to get the engine to start off the starter today by cranking it a fair bit on and off and pulling the choke but it was from warm so it dosnt count lol.

Any thoughts woud be much appreciated.

Best regards

-Jvr

[Blue_SV650S]

If the battery is low, sometimes it can turn the engine, but does not have enough left over to provide a good spark. I'd say you simply need a new battery!
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[skatefreak]

i was under the impression the spark came from the engine itself, not the battery....
hmmm, might have to re-think that one lol.

-Jvr

[pepperami]

Hmmm! theres not an imobiliser hiding in the wiring loom is there?.

Do all the wires coming off the igition switch go to the right place?
are one of the wires between the ignition switch(key) and the starter button on the wrong terminals?


Just an idea?possibly?, maybe?, !
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[Blue_SV650S]

[Teflon-Mike]

Sounds like old battery syndrome.
When the starter is switched on, it puts a HUGE load on the little bike battery, and sucks loads of amps out of it.
May tutn the engine over, but as said, often loads the electrics so hard you dont get enough for a spark.
DONT think you have a direct magneto ignition worked purely off its own coil in the generator, more usually on CDI ignition bikes, like most built since about 1980, theres a trigger in the generator, that gives a signal to the CDI, and the CDI takes current from the battery to amplify that signal and fire teh spark-plug.... so yes, volts for spark come from battery.
Battery gets its volts from the generator, and generator turning (like when you bump-start) may make enough volts to fire the sparjk-plug. BUT on the starter-motor, even if you are getting enough juice from the genny to fire the spark, drain on the battery from the starter, is sucking that to keep the starter turning.
Try a different battery, even a car battery, connected via jump-leads (To the battery terminals, your battery isolated or removed!)
If it fires, there's your problem...... tired battery......
Other things to look at are the neutral indicator switch and the clutch switch, and possibly a side-stand inhibit. Often on e-start bikes these isolate both ignition and starter solenoid.
Perverse to my mind it would be a fault in that area though.... if it was an inhibit, liklihood would be that you wouldn't be able to e-start, as it would isolate the starter solenoid, but might be able to bump-start, rather than wirring the starter with no fire happening.
Hence my money on tired battery syndrome
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[skatefreak]

Awesome,
battery killed in no time atall thanks to the reg that blew then i guess

Just to much into the habbit of bump starting this bike i guess lol.

But yes, what you all say makes lots of sense, is there any way to load test a battery with a multi meter?

I guess i could just hook it up and give the starter a twirl and see what happens.

Mucho's appreciation for the input guys!

Best regards

-Jvr

[Blue_SV650S]

[skatefreak]

Will most certainly try... when i can get to a car haha...
Probly tomorow

-Jvr

[pepperami]

[Walloper]

If you know how to work/read a volt meter you can test a battery on the vehicle.
You need someone to help you as it will involve energizing the starter with the bike in gear both wheels on the ground/road.

Put the volt meter between positive post and negative post.
Put the bike in top gear 5/6.
Watch the meter it should read 12-13 volts with a full charge.
Have someone sit on the bike with front brake on.
Engage the starter and hold it engaged for a few seconds.
This will put a massive load on the battery.
When the starter is engaged the battery voltage will drop to bout 10-11 volts but should hold that level for several seconds.
If the battery is no good the voltage may hold for a second or two then drop rapidly towards zero.

This is what a High Rate Discharge Tester does to a battery.

You are messing with a fair amount of energy doing this so it is advisable to wear a face shield in case the battery bursts and showers you with acid, lead and plastic.

Of you could wait till tomorrow and hook a car to it.
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[Blue_SV650S]

[alun111]

[Walloper]

For a High Rate Discharge Test to work the batery must have a full charge.
If the battery drops to very low voltage then it is normally goosed.

The starter turning the engine over will not put enough load on the starter to do the test properly. the motor has to be stalled to get maximum amps.

A fancy battery charger will not repair a bad battery. Any charger can put a temporary charge into a bad battery but it will fail under load.
Perhaps the load on the battery you tested is no near the battery's rated load so it can carry lighter loads and appear to be good.

For your interest, you should look up' lead acid battery' on google to help you understand what is going on in a lead acid battery to make it work (or not work).
This technology has been around for a very very long time and it is shocking why hardly anyone knows the secrets.
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[pepperami]

[Blue_SV650S]

[alun111]

[Walloper]

Fight fight fight.......
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[skatefreak]

The mistry continues...

Throwing it onto a car and when cranking the multimeter shows the voltage doesnt drop below 14v (big car heh), and yet it still dosnt start

One thing worth noting is that the starter jumps off after the first compression consistantly when it was hooked up to the car...

Not sure why its doing this but i think the next step is to get the starter out and figure out why its doing that (fully engaging and then jumping off the flywheel just after tdc)...

Also just on a side note, the bike battery was at a resonable 13.3v so its held plenty of voltage but when cranking on its own it drops to around 10'ish v.

Think its foo bar?

Best regards

-Jvr

[alun111]

Are you saying the starter is engaged and then disengages and just spins up (like a high pitched whine)?

If so they'll be something wrong with the starter gears/starter clutch which will be under whichever engine case the starter inserts into.
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[Blue_SV650S]

The plot thickens ...

When you have bump started the bike, does it run smoothly? (you may have said before, but CBA to look up!! ).

I am wondering if the bikes timing is out such that it is backfiring and the starter has a 'backfire saver' in it?

What exact year and model is it .. can we not find you an online manual to make some more educated guesses at this point?
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[skatefreak]

To an extent yes...

The starter initiates and the centrifugal cog jumps out and grabs the flywheel and it will turn the engine over at least once but after the first compression the starter lets go of the flywheel and will just spin around making a horrible noise

When i got the bike the starter was not working, although it just needed brushes and springs, there was no gasket on there though (which i should have noticed), moisture in there and after a while the centrifugal clutch rusted up enough to stop it jumping out and engaging so i got it out again and lubed up the centrifugal cog just enough to get it moving again and it worked fine for a little while and its started slipping now... related to the lubrication put on it maybe?

Best regards

-Jvr

Ps, the bike runs absoloutly fine, its an NSR12501 (RY model), the service manual itself doesnt consider this situation lol... The starter either works and turns the engine or it doesnt work and looks at why it doesnt work

[alun111]

It sounds like you know what you're talking about within the starter system mate, so tbh I'd be taking it apart again and inspecting.
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Winter: '93 Suzuki GSF 400 Bandit VP Variable Valve
Past Bikes: Lifan LF100-5 Lifan LF125-A Honda C70

[Walloper]

Bastad Starter clutch is gubbed....
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