DIY zero to hero mechanics course, which first bike?

[spetom]

If you had 0 motorcycle mechanic experience and wanted to start somewhere from the basics up (so classic up to modern or old engines to new), which first bike would you recommend starting on? Or even what sequence of bikes would you recommend, for example...

1) Royal Enfield 500
2) Honda CG125
3) Honda CB250
4) etc. etc.

You have only your tools, books, internet, service manual and a bag of determination.

By the end of the DIY mechanics course you should be able to:

-Easily service the bike.
-Totally rebuild the bike, engine and all.

(other specifics such as motorcycle resprays are not considered, purely mechanics and engine stuff).

I look forward to your views!

[map]

IMO start on a CG125.
Take the tank and seat off and it's little more than a bicycle frame.

It's light enough to manhandle around and easy to get at all the bits. No special tools required. Metric nuts/bolts. Haynes manual readily available (useful for torque settings etc.). Parts also readily available either new, pattern or from breakers.

Plus you'd need to throw in a 2-stroke just for the experience. A scooter would do as then different transmission system encountered.

HTH
____________________
...and the whirlwind is in the thorn trees, it's hard for thee to kick against the pricks...
Gibbs, what did Duckie look like when he was younger?

[neil.]

I did this on my YBR125, no experience except tinkering with bicycles beforehand. All I have is tools, books and the internet. In terms of maintenance, the YBR is quite similar to the CG from what I've read. I've certainly enjoyed working on it, although I haven't tackled any engine work yet, bar valve clearances. Done 3 services myself as well as some random bits and it's passed through 2 MOT's so I must be doing something right.
____________________
CBT February 2008 | A2 June 2008 | Yamaha YBR125 (written off) | Honda CBF125 (current)

[truslack]

I'd start wtih an MZ ETZ 250, bottom end of the engine isn't great to work on (apparantly) but the rest is simple!
____________________
Current: Suzuki RG 125 Gamma, Honda H100, Triumph Tiger 800XC, Suzuki SV650 (minitwin)

[G]

A 2 stroke proper minimoto makes a very good start to really learn about stuff.
A cub style engined bike worth considering for easy 4 stroke basics.

However, generally, what ever bike you happen to have should be fine. Just start on the smaller stuff and work up.

[stinkwheel]

I'd go for an OHC, air cooled single or paralell twin.

I'd probably go for a Honda because they seem to be much better put together in terms of build quality and materials (so they are easier to take to bits without breaking stuff) and spare parts are usually fairly available and not overly expensive.

The main reason for choosing this is that they have all the features you would expect to find on a more modern motorbike such as a camchain, cam, overhead valve gear but without the added complexity of having to work around a water jacket/radiator.

So, any of the smaller, aircooled CB/CD/CM series would be great.

The trouble with something like an Enfield is that they aren't really like anything else about. Very simple but what you learn on one isn't going to be of as much benefit for working on other stuff unless you intend to get British pre-unit singles (and they aren't really like those either).

Probably wouldn't go for a CG for similar reasons, you don't see many OHV engines these days.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Teflon-Mike]

That's pretty much the re-mit we started with for Snowtigeress & her CB125 Super-Dream 'Pup' Project.

There is NO 'perfect' bike to learn mechanics on, & far too much else to consider. Have a look at this:- Taking on a Project And snowies CB125 rebuild blog. (& plenty of others over on Show & Tell)

It REALLY depends on what you want to get out of the project, above and beyond the learning experience, how much money you can afford to loose on the excersise, how quick you want it to get done, how much time you can devote to it, space, tools and facilities, and expertise, whether your own, other peoples or subbed out to specialists.

You could choose almost ANY bike to have a crack at, but all have their own peculiarities, advantages and disadvantages, some bikes are more complicated or intricate.

How hard do you want to make it for yourself? How much do you want to learn? How 'generic' or transfereable to other bikes do you want it to be?

Simplest and easiest place to start, would be a twin-shock, air-cooled, two stroke, drum-braked commuter or dirt bike.

Simplest arrangement of a motorcycle, most emminantly 'doable', provided you pick something with decent spares support, but two stroke engine wont teach you much about the intricacies of a four-stroke, or Over-Head Cam engines. T-shock rear suspension wont teach you much about the intricacies of a multi-link mono-shock suspension system, drum brakes wont teach you much about hydraulic discs.

A water-cooled in-line, DOHC 'four' sportsbike, with multi-link monoshock suspension, tripple disc brakes, etc etc etc gives you much scope to learn 'stuff'.... but much more involved and probably expensive project, more likely to vex or stump you, and less likely to be done, and certainly done cheaply.

BUT.... for what YOU want, best advice I can offer is, DONT go looking for a 'project' that 'NEEDS' fixing. Go buy a viable bike. Something thats all there, original and working.

Possibly a bit worn out or tired, but working blind, you really want it to come apart and go back together again like the haynes manual says...... becouse thats your instructions. Your going to take the book, and follow it, taking it down in stages, overhauling it, JUST like the Haynes technicians did, and then put it back together again.

So the MOST important thing is to get a bike you can get a Haynes manual for.

Next, you want one that has a Haynes Manual that DOESN'T have a Chapter 13 'Revisions for Later Models' thats thicker than all the rest! You want something that has a stable design history.

REALLY its all pretty much common sense... and MONEY!

Taking on a bike with the sole intent of stripping & rebuilding it, parts bill WILL be big. Often a LOT bigger than the price of the bike to begin with.

Which is a good reason to buy a more expensive bike thats 'all there' to begin with, and in better shape to begin with, as it SHOULD minimise the number of worn out parts you have to buy.

And why 'simpler' twin-shock bikes, two-strokes and drum brakes make more sense. Overhauling the front brake on Snowies 125 Superdream cost around £120, when you totalled up two new caliper pistons & seals, a master cylinder overhaul kit, new brake line, then pads and fluid....... Front brake on my DT 125, will be about £30.... pair of new shows, a new cable..... and a little bit of grease.... job done!

Overhauling the suspension on Snowies mono-shock Super-Dream, cost, £80 for a new shock, and as much again for all the faffing bushes in the linkage. A T-Shock CG or KH would have been about £60... £40 for a pair of shocks and £20 for the swing-arm bushes.

More complicated a bike you pick to do, more its going to cost, though more you will learn from it. Simpler it is, cheaper & easier it'll be, but the less diverse the experiance you'll get from it.

So, ultimately it comes down to a lot of personaly choice, the available funds, the time and space & skill you have to do it all, and the confidence you have to pull it all together.... and what comes along when you go looking.

PERSONALLY, I'd steer you away from things like old Brit-Bikes. Support for them is patchy, and its a contentiouse place to start. Some will advise modern 'upgrades' others insist on OCD 'authenticity', and the advice you'll get will often be contradictory, and you risk effing up a desirable, valuable or pottentially rare bike, by doing something wrong..... possibly by just listening to the wrong person. I'd steer clear of more desirable Japanese Classics for a similar reason.

I'd steer clear of more obscure machines; early Japs, Italians, and ESPECIALLY non-UK 'Grey-Imports'.

And I'd be more inclined by the 'simpler' bikes if not the most rudimentary. Bikes like Snowies CB125 Super-Dream is involved 'enough' to be useful and interesting, without being so complex as to be daunting, its old enough to be cheap, popular enough for there to be good spares support, new and second hand, but no so old as to be a cherished classic. But there are PLENTY of bies like that about that are more of less challenging.

Of whats on your list, I'd NOT reccomend the Royal Enfield 500. Its not a great bike. Its NOT a hugely diesirable classic. It has ALL the foibles of an old brit, BUT, becouse they still make the Enfield India Bullet, people THINK that they are supported well for spares..... and hence project bases are expensive, and lots of people want to do one, AND you have even MORE people offering contradictory advice......

The CB250, I'd not reccomend for the simple fact that Haynes Chapter 13 on that particular bike coveres about four volumes! The CB250 covers a LOT of different bikes. Theres about three different engines in there and a myriad of different vairiants of each. And again, one far too many people have a crack at becouse they think its going to be 'easy' and 'cheap'. And there are FAR too many CB250 'unfinished' projects knocking about, or CB250 'lemons'.

The CG125.... NOT a lot to sink your teeth into, but it is VERY do-able, and it is an eccentric design, with its single cam-lobe push-rod fourstroke engine. Might not be VERY representative of other machines, but it IS a good a place to start as any. VERY well supported for parts, and as simple as they come. Its a machine that you COULD pretty much follow the Haynes on, and stand a pretty good chance of seeing working again at the end.

But for what you would pay for a viable project base, what youd spend on it doing it, and then what it would be worth at the end? Hmmmm.... expecting to loose money..... you'd probably loose the least on it, but it should sell easily enough.... but as your first project, would you WANT to sell it?

Personally, I think I'd be inclined to suggest a Honda XL125 instead. Not as well supported for parts, and not as cheap to do, but it is pretty well supported and still pretty cheap. AND whle its a rudementary T-Shoke motor, it has the OHC engine in it, thats a tad more 'representative'. Would sell just as well, and be worth a bit more, but as a bike you could keep, something that has a purpose as a commuter / occasional trail tool. On that line of thingking any of the older XL series may be worth a look. XL175 or 185 or even a 250, would be no more work, and cheaper to get hold of, as they aren't learner legal, and if you weren't going to sell on, could be useful.

And on that line of thinking, I'd probably suggest a dirt-bike, becouse as a duel-purpose machine, they can earn thier keep as a second bike, and will sell on as such, as well as being fairly simple compared to sportier road bikes.

But the bottom line is we could suggest ANYTHING, there are NO right and wrong answers her, you have to pick what suits YOUR ideas and your aspirations and YOUR capabilities.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[spetom]

Hmmm.

How about throwing myself into the deep end then. I really want to hammer motorcycle mechanics. So how about starting from a Honda VFR 400? I believe there is a good haynes manual for the NC30.

I'm looking at good example at the moment with low mileage, but bad appearance, body etc. grey import (I take it's the same as the UK NC 30), it also seems to be misfiring when it's cold but runs smoothly when hot (any ideas why?) for around £1000. I would be willing to do a total refit.

(On a seperate issue a question about respraying and decals? Can you change the colour of plastics? Can you have them resprayed? What is the best way of getting the original colour schemes back etc. This is something I'd also like to do if I was going to do a VFR 400.)

Let me know what you all think?

[stinkwheel]

We come back to the VFR400.

As I have said before. If you want one, buy one, you don't need any better a reason than that you want one. They are lovely little bikes and if you can find a relatively unthrashed/unmolested one, it shouldn't really need any work doing on it in the first place.

In terms of finding a nice, simple bike that's easy to work on with cheap spares, you couldn't really pick anything worse. It's about as complex as a bike motor gets, parts are expensive, tolerances are tight and there isn't much room to work in (the frame is pretty much totally full of engine). Add to that you have to dismantle all the plastics to get at it and invariably have to remove half the bike to get at the other half.

Hell. I just changed the shock on my VFR750. You have to take the tank off, remove the battery, rear coils and solenoid, drop it down, undo the top mount then lift it up and out through a hatch in the battery box!
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Frost]

You really do sound like your desperate to find a reason to buy the bike that you want. VFR's are a shitter to work on. The V4 engine gives complicated exhaust routing and the carbs are a sod to get on without knackering the rubbers. Parts are quite expensive as they are old bikes in limited supply but still desirable as they can be ridden by young people and look fast.

As a general rule sports bikes aren't designed to be easy to work on or perform maintenance on, their just designed to be the basis for the race bike. Multi cylinder bikes and larger engine capacities are also harder to work on as things are bigger, heavier and more complicated.

[Im-a-Ridah]

The only bike I've done everything on (inc bottom end) is the Aprilia RS 125, the next most would be the ZX6R and TZR 125. Of the above list I'd probably go with the CG125 as its a single, whereas the CB250 is a parallel twin I think?

[hmmmnz]

as stink wheel has pointed out a single cylinder air cooled ohc engine is the way to go,
a xr250 cb250rs etc,
____________________
the humans are dead
I kick arse for the lord
Wiring Diagrams BIDNIP it bitches

[herulach]

Something Naked, and, assuming you want it to look nice, something in good cosmetic condition.

Body panels (& painting) really start to add up quickly
____________________
YBR 125>FZS600

[Nixon]

If you know how to swing a spanner, it doesn't matter what you swing it at you will be able to take it to bits and put it back together, but motorbikes ain't mecano!

Its experience that is the key thing, and often the best way to gain experience is to learn it from others or gain it through others. Best way I think is by helping someone else take someone elses bike apart, if it all goes tits up and you fvck up its not your bike you have bodged, and someone else can help fix your mistakes.

Things like knowing what good brake seals look like and what knackered brake seals look like is hard to decide on your own with no experience.

Things like drilling out seized or snapped bolts is a pain if you don't know what your doing (trust me )

Things that seem simple like fitting a new chain and sprocket can be an absolute bitch, despite what haynes will tell you.

And its all fine and dandy when you put everything together and find a random pipe that you missed and have to undo 3 hours of work.

Buying a shitter and making it good with no experience or knowledge is a bit of a silly plan personally, unless you can rope in someone who does know what there doing.