For Tommy and Donny.

[Hetzer]

Hmm...

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-primacy-of-consciousness/

I'm so ahead of the curve.
____________________
"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[Paulington]

The introducer is an awful public speaker..

"We met the guy in um... and we spoke about um... when I put this conference together um..."

!
____________________
"Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul."
Current Vehicles: '89 Kawasaki KDX200, '99 Yamaha XV535, '00 Honda ST1100 Pan-European, '08 Suzuki GSX-R1000, '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GS4 2.0 TDCi, '15 BMW 1 Series 116d Sport Turbo.
CBT: 27/08/08. Theory: 04/09/09. Module 1: 16/09/09. Module 2: 01/10/09.

[colin1]

[Hetzer]

[pepperami]

____________________
I am the sum total of my own existence, what went before makes me who I am now!

[colin1]

How does being a physicist mean that his ideas on consciousness are any more valid than yours ?

Anyone can have a theory. If there is no way of proving its true or untrue, thats not really science, its more philosophy or religion.

Physicists are allowed to believe in things they cant prove too. It doesnt make it any more real if its coming from a physicist.

Him being a physicist may help him make his ideas on consciousness more elegant, but its not physics, so its not something he is an expert on any more than you or me.

Not sure what a shiftless gonk is, but I hope you arent returning to your old habit of insults rather than healthy debate or discussion.

Remember its possible for other people to have different views without you needing to try to insult them. Especially as you are now the virtuous hetzer who is borderline Buddhist not wanting to hurt a fly etc. Unless of course the fly had it coming.

EDIT : just looked him up on google

He is no more a physicist than I am a mechanical engineer

He did a degree in physics, I did a degree in mechanical engineering. He did his degree in physics but since then has been involved in transcendental meditation, writing books about consciousness etc. did a Ph.D. on the 'psychophysiology of meditation'
____________________
colin1 is officially faster than god

[Hetzer]

[colin1]

Me not believing in god, is not science. Its a belief system.

So in the same way, your 'physicist' wanting to believe in the world of the consciousness rather than what we see around us, is just a belief system. It's not science.

Science is things you can prove.

Steven Hawking (who actually is a physicist) has come to the conclusion from his science work, that there is no god. But that is not a scientific conclusion, as he cant verify it.

You don't need to try to back up your belief system with insults as you cant prove it any more than I can prove there is no god.

Its just a matter of personal belief.

I guess you could find it offensive that I think your world view is nutty, but on the other hand, I didnt call you a nut or an idiot, so I didnt insult you. So I guess I should say I'm sorry if you were offended by such a light bit of disapproval of your beliefs that you felt you need to come out blazing with a barrage of insults. Sorry.

I hope bcf allows you lots of followers to your and Pete's new religion, just don't pretend that he is a physicist and his ideas have anything to do with science.
____________________
colin1 is officially faster than god

[T0MMY]

Right, I really can't be arsed to get into another debate with you as it'll obivously go nowhere but I watched your video to try to see if it was as convincing as you make all these things sound.

These are my observations although given how open minded and objective you claim to be Hetzer, you will no doubt have had the same thoughts. I'd hate to think you were like one of the irritatingly sycophanting audience members laughing hysterically at every weak joke

First of all, the guy is not a physicist as far as I can see, I don't know why you think he is but if you tell me I could be wrong. As far as I can see he did an undergraduate physics degree and that is where his physics career ended. You know how many office admin workers are psychologists and anthropologists? It's also interesting that you say we must listen to this guy because he is a scientist but if I found 1,000 other scientists who disagreed you would label them as closed minded... because they are scientists.

The video actually presents no proof for anything, it just points out gaps in knowledge and makes assumptions. That's fine, but don't get pissy when others are not convinced by someones unsupported theory.

Things I didn't like/agree with:-

At 26 minutes he asserts the existence of remote viewing, healing and reincarnation. These are unproven phenomena.

From about 27:30, he goes on about how the reality we see is not how we perceive it but is just a construct of our minds and how we all make the mistake of thinking it's real. Every scientist is well aware of this fact though, I know the visual image I have of the world is just electromagnetic radiation interpreted by my brain. This is not an issue in science at all.

He asserts that we assume fish have consciousness because we see them feel pain but I could argue that is an unconscious response to stimuli that would inevitably evolve in much the same way as some plants can grow towards the sun through unconscious mechanical response.

The biggest problem comes up next as it forms the basis of the whole theory in a way but is pure assumption which he quickly turns into fact...

30:30 .... "I BELIEVE consciousness goes all the way down" (to amoeba etc.). Now I would want a reason to believe that but I guess I'm too closed minded.

31:42.... "so consciousness is there all the way through" Ok, now this is a hard fact? oh yes, as he says a little later "consciousness is in everything". Now this is utterly fundamental to the theory but he just introduces it and states it but gives no reason beyond the fact that fish respond to pain. What about amoeba? Where's his proof of their consciousness?

He goes on later to state that science has never questoned the implications of the fact that reality is perceived entirely through the mind... this is balls, we are well aware that perceptions may be different from reality as I said earlier.

40:50
He talks about how our idea of what matter is has been changing as we learn more about the nature of particles which is all true but then he asserts "so we know there is not matter"...errr...no we don't, we have not extinguished the possibility of fundamental matter just because we stopped thinking a rock was a solid object but was instead made up of smaller particles.

I suppose overall, an interesting point of this guys way of thinking is that he explains how knowledge like this can only be intuited as our interactions with "reality" are only that which is constructed by the consciousness. This is fair enough but he never seems to question that his own consciousness may be equally fallible when he is intuiting these facts. In other words, that his intuition could actually be wrong

I was really hoping this video was going to show me why you believe these things so strongly but he really offered no actual reasons, just pointed out gaps in knowledge. Religion used to fill them, now we have metaphysics but science usually gets there in the end.
____________________
ZX6R + CBR600RR

[T0MMY]

Oh yes and the other glaringly obvious contradiction he makes is when he states that the only sure thing is that consciousness exists in everyone.

Surely that is just a perception that he has of reality that has been filtered through his own mind? It's not a new idea that you could be the only real person and everyone else is a figment of your imagination.

Now I really want this to be my last post in this thread...
____________________
ZX6R + CBR600RR

[colin1]

[T0MMY]

[colin1]

I'm now curious who Donny is.

EDIT

There is a bcf user of that name but he only has posted once, so does hetzer mean bonny ?
____________________
colin1 is officially faster than god

[T0MMY]

DonnyBrago.

Like me, he has been unwillingly thrust into the spotlight as the mouthpiece of all science and rationality on BCF
____________________
ZX6R + CBR600RR

[Hetzer]

I didn't really expect anything better. The same sneering put-downs, based upon the square root of fuckall in the way of actual knowledge. A scientist? You're nothing more than a retarded kid playing in a sandpit with a stick.

What really turns my stomach is that my children have to hear what is either your brand of idiocy or arrogance. Idiocy if you really believe your insane dribblings, arrogance if it is in fact your wilfull spite towards a 'god' who won't kow-tow to your insistence that he show you proof of what you intuitively suspect to be the truth. "Show us or we'll profess to disbelieve!"

Your poisonous bile cripples peoples spiritual aspirations, leaves them in fear and teaches them that as there is nothing but this life there must be no reason to strive for decency. You devalue everything and anything that has substance and meaning, leaving nothing but the vile taste of unfettered materialism. You pygmy-minded chattels of the allmighty dollar. Because of your petty resentment, your unconscious anger that 'god' won't lead you by the hand into the light. Your pretended nihilism, your disgusting selfishness. Oh, and how clever you think you are, with your pathetic science, the new-age church that burns anyone who dares to speak the obvious truth at the stake.

If it wasn't for the massive harm you and your type cause to our society I'd pity you. But it's creatures like you that have kept mankind down for millenia. "Live for the now! Grasp and snide and lie and cheat, for there is nothing else! Take what you can and shit on anyone who gets in your way! Care for nothing and nobody! This is it! This is as good as it gets!"

Your souls are bankrupt. You promote nothing but greed. Your tight, miserly, narrow-minded anti-spiritual vitriol. Because daddy won't hold your hand. Well gee, I guess maybe he thought you might have the balls to stand on your own two feet, instead of whining and crying in the dark because you refuse to acknowledge what is so painfully obvious to anyone who isn't a spiritual cripple.

Matter is everything...? Pygmy-minded odure of the lowest order. And my kids have to suffer it's rotten stench, thanks to the intellectual animals that drop it from their reeking arses.

Ahem. Maybe you get some measure of my contempt now. You smug, self-satisfied intellectual cripples. Relying on your second-hand scientific cant. You're nothing more than a new-age inquisition, book-burning trolls and cowards. "Gimme gimme, or I'm taking my ball home!"

The satisfying truth is that you will judge yourselves in the end, for all the harm you do with your spite and resentment. For your contribution to making this world so much less than it could be.


____________________
"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[Paulington]

We discuss and debate our scientific beliefs with you, you disagree with our beliefs and complain that it's all insane drivel that gets shoved down the throats of your children whilst simultaneously shoving your equally insane drivel down our throats.

Makes perfect sense.
____________________
"Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul."
Current Vehicles: '89 Kawasaki KDX200, '99 Yamaha XV535, '00 Honda ST1100 Pan-European, '08 Suzuki GSX-R1000, '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GS4 2.0 TDCi, '15 BMW 1 Series 116d Sport Turbo.
CBT: 27/08/08. Theory: 04/09/09. Module 1: 16/09/09. Module 2: 01/10/09.

[Hetzer]

[SpicyBlimp]

He does seem to have put alot of time and effort into something he'll never figure out

It's all quantum bollocks to me anyhow.

[Paulington]

[SoND]

[colin1]

[colin1]

Hetzers objection to the science view of the world, is quite sweet in this country as no ones kids are going to be taught his alternative world view, but in america, in many schools evolution is taught alongside creationism in science lessons, as if the bible is just as much a scientific text as darwins stuff.

In fact in some schools over there, they dont agree with evolution so its not taught at all.

I think belief based stuff should be kept in RE lessons. Believing in hocus pocus must be very comforting, so I'm not against religions, I just dont like it when religious types try to bring in pseudo-science to try to give themselves a bit of credibility.
____________________
colin1 is officially faster than god

[Hetzer]

[SoND]

[SoND]