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Insurance for test rides

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Beelzebob
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 22:07 - 11 Nov 2010    Post subject: Insurance for test rides Reply with quote
Hi folks - bear with me, it's not the obvious.

I have just bought another bike (XJ600 Divvy) for peanuts, a winter hack to replace the YBR. I am therefore switching the insurance over so I can ride my big new powerful (all relative obviously) bike, and will be selling the YBR privately.

My question is this. Where does that leave me for other people that want to take the YBR on a test ride?

I would generally assume that, for the 'riding other bikes' clause on people's insurance, a condition would be that the other bike had to have some kind of insurance. Is this right, i.e. nobody could test ride it (on a public road)?

Apologies if this has been answered before - had a rummage around but couldn't find owt.
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Bloke
Crazy Courier



Joined: 06 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 11 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yup, in most cases a bike that is to be ridden under an any other bike policy is required to be covered by another policy in it's own right.
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psychofox
Nova Slayer



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 11 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nope, the vehicle doesn't need to be otherwise insured. But, riding other vehicle has mostly been done away with now, and even those who still have it will find that in the small print of their policy it will say "For emergency use only". Only a trader policy or something similar will allow them to be fully covered for a test ride.
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Benson_JV
World Chat Champion



Joined: 04 May 2010
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PostPosted: 23:13 - 11 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
psychofox wrote:
Nope, the vehicle doesn't need to be otherwise insured. But, riding other vehicle has mostly been done away with now, and even those who still have it will find that in the small print of their policy it will say "For emergency use only". Only a trader policy or something similar will allow them to be fully covered for a test ride.


Everywhere I've got quotes off has told me in no uncertain terms that the bike has to be insured before you can ride it under riding other bikes.
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Willson - "If you go out on that CBR600 in the winter, you're going to do more miles on your side than on your wheels."
Riding: CBR600FW Driving: Audi A6
Previous Bikes: '96 Bandit 600, '96 GPz305
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weasley
World Chat Champion



Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 23:49 - 11 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Many policies will allow you to add a bike temporarily. Or you can get day cover. Tell this to prospective buyers and make sure anyone who comes to test it provides proof of valid insurance cover before you let them on the road. And leaves a full deposit as cash.
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psychofox
Nova Slayer



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: 01:00 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Benson_JV wrote:
psychofox wrote:
Nope, the vehicle doesn't need to be otherwise insured. But, riding other vehicle has mostly been done away with now, and even those who still have it will find that in the small print of their policy it will say "For emergency use only". Only a trader policy or something similar will allow them to be fully covered for a test ride.


Everywhere I've got quotes off has told me in no uncertain terms that the bike has to be insured before you can ride it under riding other bikes.


Ah right, maybe it's changed since I was last working for an insurer (4 years or so ago), but it definitely used to be ok.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 01:22 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
make sure anyone who comes to test it provides proof of valid insurance cover before you let them on the road.


Why on earth would you care? We're not all tools of the State - not yet, at least. Their ride, their responsibility.

The only thing you need to be sure of is that you have their details so you can shop them if they mow down some nuns and then leg it.


weasley wrote:
And leaves a full deposit as cash.


Now you're making sense.
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Bloke
Crazy Courier



Joined: 06 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 01:46 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
weasley wrote:
make sure anyone who comes to test it provides proof of valid insurance cover before you let them on the road.


Why on earth would you care? We're not all tools of the State - not yet, at least. Their ride, their responsibility.

The only thing you need to be sure of is that you have their details so you can shop them if they mow down some nuns and then leg it.


weasley wrote:
And leaves a full deposit as cash.


Now you're making sense.


Because it is illegal to knowingly let someone take your vehicle on the road without valid insurance, IIRC it carries the same penalties as if you rode it yourself.

Because when the bike gets picked up on ANPR and impounded, paying the release fee sucks.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 09:17 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bloke wrote:
[..] it is illegal to knowingly let someone take your vehicle on the road without valid insurance, IIRC it carries the same penalties as if you rode it yourself.


Thanks for the correction. Bah, apparently we are all tools of the State. Sad

The Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 143 wrote:

143 Users of motor vehicles to be insured or secured against third-party risks.

(1)Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act—

(a)a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and

(b)a person must not cause or permit any other person to use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that other person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act.


Well, that's a bag of dicks and no mistake. Look at the defence though:

The Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 143 wrote:

(3)A person charged with using a motor vehicle in contravention of this section shall not be convicted if he proves—

(c)that he neither knew nor had reason to believe that there was not in force in relation to the vehicle such a policy of insurance or security as is mentioned in subsection (1) above.


To me, a chap's word is his bond. Curious old fashioned concept, but why would you have "reason to believe" that someone was lying about their insurance covering your bike? After all, they're accepting a far bigger risk than you are.

So, yes, I agree that it makes sense to see proof of insurance, but I think we'd have to see some case law to know whether the courts have interpreted that as a requirement or not, or whether you just have to say "You need to tell me that your insurance covers my bike".

Worst case, they don't ride it until you've "sold" it to them, with a 30 minute option to return it for a full refund. After all the money's in your hand, and possession is nine tenths of the law. The V5 is not the bike - you can sell a bike without one - and the keeper is not necessarily the owner.
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 11:33 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
psychofox wrote:
...But, riding other vehicle has mostly been done away with now, and even those who still have it will find that in the small print of their policy it will say "For emergency use only". Only a trader policy or something similar will allow them to be fully covered for a test ride.

Confused
Bullshit.
Looking at the Carole Nash policy now.
In bold print 'Riding Other Bikes' Yes

No small print, no emergency use, no trader, no nothing.

FFS those of you who think you know are really pissing off those of us who do. Moral of story, don't believe everything posted on a forum until verified by yourself.
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psychofox
Nova Slayer



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm only speaking from personal experience. I'm not saying that all companies are the same but most I have dealt with have said that they're doing away with it. Carol Nash do still allow it, as do others, but not as many as used to. Bottom line is check your policy to be sure.
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SweenyT
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
psychofox wrote:
I'm only speaking from personal experience. I'm not saying that all companies are the same but most I have dealt with have said that they're doing away with it. Carol Nash do still allow it, as do others, but not as many as used to. Bottom line is check your policy to be sure.


Seconded. I'm with MCE (Highway Ins) and initially the blurb said it comes as standard but when I got the Schedule and T&C's it was nowhere to be seen and this year on renewal there was not even a mention of it.

It doesn't hurt to double check as you could also be liable if you let someone ride your bike without insurance. Remember until the bike DVLA is notified that ownership has passed on you are still liable for it unless you can produce a dated sales receipt.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 15:20 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Then put in your advert "Test rides are available in return for a cash deposit of the full asking price and a written assurance that you have insurance that covers riding the bike. Alternatively, you can buy the bike with an option to return it within 30 minutes for a full refund."

That publishes your intent to comply with the law. The offence is strict liability, but the defence puts the burden on the CPS to prove that you had "reason to believe" that the test rider didn't have insurance - the burden isn't on you to prove that you saw evidence that they did. And it's criminal law, not civil, so a higher standard of proof applies. That's what the statute says - can anyone cite case law that shows otherwise?

Mind you, if you're really that risk averse, what are you doing with a bike in the first place?
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SweenyT
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Then put in your advert "Test rides are available in return for a cash deposit of the full asking price and a written assurance that you have insurance that covers riding the bike. Alternatively, you can buy the bike with an option to return it within 30 minutes for a full refund."

That publishes your intent to comply with the law....


Agreed. Liking the advert wording, I may just save that for if/when next I sell anything Thumbs Up

Rogerborg wrote:
.....The offence is strict liability, but the defence puts the burden on the CPS to prove that you had "reason to believe" that the test rider didn't have insurance - the burden isn't on you to prove that you saw evidence that they did. And it's criminal law, not civil, so a higher standard of proof applies. That's what the statute says - can anyone cite case law that shows otherwise?


Unfortunately criminal law is not my forte and it's been so long any criminal case law I once knew has been superseded Laughing

Rogerborg wrote:
.....Mind you, if you're really that risk averse, what are you doing with a bike in the first place?


So true Smile Anyway despite all the legalese, the advert wording Rogerborg suggested should hold you in good stead and discourage any time wasters too.

Good luck with sale.
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Current ride - 2005 Suzuki GSX-R600 K4 - 2x 2014 Honda NC750s long term courtesy bikes - 2003 Fazer FZ6 written off as idiot reversed into me - 2009 YBR125 - still have from new
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Alex A
World Chat Champion



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: 18:56 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bloke wrote:
Yup, in most cases a bike that is to be ridden under an any other bike policy is required to be covered by another policy in it's own right.


End of thread.

If the bike is not insured, another person's policy is very unlikely to cover it 3rd party.
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Beelzebob
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 22:18 - 12 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Big thanks to all contributors. I will seriously look into day or short term 'additional bike' coverage if people are serious aboot test rides

Thumbs Up
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'09 YBR 125 -> '92 XJ600 S Diversion -> '99 Hornet 600

"Stronger than your average female lifeguard"
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