Basic electrical knowledge...

[Xanthic]

Afternoon all...

I've got a slight problem with my electrics on my NSR R1 but would like to find out what's wrong on my own before I start asking people for help.

I'd just like to know (in layman's terms) what each electrical component does and how it affects the bike.

Starting from the battery including the reg/rec, alternator etc. Google seems to be spewing out words I'm failing to understand

Just to gain some sort of technical knowledge.

Cheers


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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[Paxovasa]

It is not called electrickery for nothing.
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Suzuki GSF600 K3 (in the fastest colour, black).

[Gazdaman]

There are magnets and stuff (mostly unimportant at this stage) in your engine that when the engine's running produces high voltage AC current.

(Alternating current, like what comes out of your plug socket).

This goes to your regulator, and rectifier (often kept in one box) which converts the AC to DC and also keeps it at roughly the right voltage to run the components of the bike, and also to charge the battery (~14v DC).

Then, attached to the battery you've got all the ancilleries like the starter motor and starter solonoid. The solonoid is just a relay, so a small amount of current to the solonoid effectively flicks a switch, which then powers the starter motor directly from the battery.

Then obviously lights, and shiz from the battery via your switches on the bars.

For ignition the coil will receive 12v from the battery (via the ignition key and kill switch). When the coil receives a pulse from the engine to let it know when to spark it induces a massive voltage within the coil which is sent down the HT lead to the spark plug, which then jumps a gap (due to the massive potential difference (voltage)) which then sparks and ignites your fuel.

I can't help but think it'd be easier if you described your symptoms and we could help diagnose your problem. Learning by doing is the best way, I'm not really convinced of doing by learning.
Because whatever the issue is, you'll still have to understand the stuff in order to fix it.

Gaz

[Xanthic]

Thanks for that Gaz.

I'm sure it's something simple like the battery needs more water or charging.

I came off the bike in April 2010 and it was basically stood in the garage until a couple of weeks ago without the engine being turned over or anything.

The first thing my mechanic said was that the starter motor needed replacing as it was making a rough scratching sound so I got hold of a second hand one and replaced it - it makes the same noise but not as bad.

A couple of days ago I noticed that my lights on the dials were quite dim up until the bike started warming. Then when I flicked the indicators on, they started dimming again.

Last night I did a short ride home (about a mile) and the headlights went off. Then on again. Then off. Then on. Dim dials. Indicators not working.

This morning, key in, choke on, electric start and nothing. No lights, no side stand light, no dials - zilch. I had to bump start the bike.

Riding in - the dial lights were being erratic again. I got into work, parked up, engine off and thought I'd try and button start it - nothing. Looks like I'm bump starting the bike again tonight
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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[Gazdaman]

That's the battery. Almost guarantee it. Get a decent charger like an optimate and leave it connected for 24h or so. If that doesn't sort it the battery could be dead, they don't live forever and might need replacing.

There was probably nothing wrong with your original starter motor either.

Gaz

[Paxovasa]

Either the battery is fubar'd or the regulator/rectifier is fubar'd

Stick the battery on charge.
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Suzuki GSF600 K3 (in the fastest colour, black).

[Xanthic]

Thanks guys

When I first got the bike I had battery problems so replaced the battery with a brand new one (it ended up being a duff battery - got that replaced) so I've still got the voltmeter and trickle charger from that issue. I was going to do a test on it tonight.

I've only had the battery from new since 2008/2009...

Great, that's more money for a new battery if it's dead.

https://brianhill.clthosting.com/images/Jiu-Jitsu_Poster_funny.jpg
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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[stinkwheel]

I agree with Gaz.

If the lights were totally off then came back on when the bike fired up, it's the battery. (or the connectors to the battery)
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Xanthic]

When I changed my battery when I first got the bike, it went in for a service at the same time and my mechanic covered the connectors with a gel? Abit like vaseline? To stop water from getting on the connections.... anyone have any idea what that was?
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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[Paxovasa]

probably just grease.
____________________
Suzuki GSF600 K3 (in the fastest colour, black).

[stinkwheel]

[Gazdaman]

If it's a persistent battery problem it could be a charging issue.

Give the battery a good charge, if that fixes the problem, then put a voltmeter across the battery with the engine running (and revs a bit above idle) and you should get more than 13v. 12v or less and it's not charging.

But as Stinkwheel said, it could easily be the battery connection too, if a charge doesn't sort it, it could be worth popping the connectors off and giving them a clean up with a small file or emery paper.

Gaz

[Xanthic]

[stirlinggaz]

post a pic of the battery..............(& multi-meter readings at OFF,IDLE & at say 5000rpm)
it might be a gel type, or indeed there isnt enough electrolyte/acid/water in it.
Their usually TOPPED UP with distilled water (quid a bottle) NOT tap water.
sometimes its quite hard to see the fluid, so hold it up to the light?
depends on the battery type/seller & it should come pre-filled, but i have bought a few where the actual battery is dry & it came with an "acid pack" which has to be poured into the battery. though some internet sellers refuse to send the acid pack, due to royal mail restrictions.
perhaps something wasnt done right at this stage?
sounds like you may have changed the starter motor for nothing,lol but your doing the right thing in charging the battery up on slow charge (if its the correct "type" of charger) & then checking it with a multi-meter.......
cheers,
GAZ

[Howling TerrorOutOfOffice]

Not sure if it will explode with little or no electrolyte...and wouldn't like to try.

Your new battery is waiting
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The Harry Turner Project

[stinkwheel]

Stop charging now and check the electrolyte properly.

If it's low, you can warp the plates by trying to charge it, then it will be junk.

Assuming it's a standard type battery (usually is if you can take the lids off, the big clue would be the presence of an overflow pipe fitting at one end) then look inside it with a torch. The lead plates should be covered in liquid. If they aren't, top each cell up with de-ionized water until they are. Then charge it.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Xanthic]

ARGH! I didnt get the messages about stop charging and checking the battery til just now!

So I put the battery on charge, refitted the battery, hit the start and nothing. Another bump start to get to work.

The battery is a CTX5L-BS lead battery. I didnt notice an overflow pipe? I say "I didnt notice" because I dont actually know what it's supposed to look like...

Great.
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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[Gazdaman]

What do you mean by nothing at all? Is it just that the starter motor doesn't turn? Or do you not get any lights or anything without the engine running?

I would have thought even a knackered battery would show some signs of life after a charge.

If it's the latter I'd try a new battery. If it's the former I'd be looking at an issue more closely related to the starter motor/solonoid.

Gaz

[Xanthic]

I dont get anything at all. No lights whatsoever (not even the side stand light/neutral) and no starter motor. Imagine being sat on your bike with no key in.

I was going to nip down to the local shop and get some deionised water for the battery tonight as well.
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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[Gazdaman]

I'd try borrowing a new battery first, and pop that in. See if it fixes the problem.

Then if it's not the problem, you've not wasted too much money.

Gaz

[Paxovasa]

Try cleaning the battery terminals and the connectors. Also try jump leads of another battery, Just to check whether your battery is fubar'd.
____________________
Suzuki GSF600 K3 (in the fastest colour, black).

[Xanthic]

Cheers guys. I'll do this tomorrow. I finish work at 5pm, pick up some de-ionised water, get some sleep then to my night job from 9pm til 4am.

I'll keep you all posted!


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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[stinkwheel]

Even a 90% knackered battery should be giving you a feeble glow at the neutral light.

I reckon you must have a broken/detached/corroded wire somewhere between the battery and the ignition.

Trying to think of an easy way to confirm this .

You could get a 9v battery (pp3 like you get in a smoke alarm) that is known to work, disconnect the bike battery and touch the battery connectors against it with the ignition on. The neutral light should light up. If it doesn't, there is a dodgy connection. (Obviously, don't try to start it like this or the battery will explode.).

That being the case, there is quite a limited number of places the problem could be. It's either on the live feed between the battery and the reg/rec or ignition switch or the negative isn't earthed properly.

Taking the last first, follow the fat green wire from the battery negative. It should connect to an earth point on the frame somewhere on or near the starter motor. Make sure this is well bolted down and the area between the terminal and the frame is free from rust and dirt (clean, bare, shiny metal).

The more I think on this, the more I think the battery earth could be your problem. The starter motor has been off, they would probably have disturbed the frame earth doing this.

Moving onto the positive side, I'm not familiar with your exact bike but Honda tend to be quite uniform in the way they do this and the wire colours they use.

So, it'll b a red wire that the problem is on.

You have a voltmeter so you can follow it and see between which points the power disappears. Measure voltage between the red wire connectors and any bare metal bit of frame, you should get battery voltage at each. If you don't, the problem is betwqeen there and the last thing you checked on this list.

First check there is 12V at the red wire on the starter relay. This is a seperate circuit.

Next the main fuse. Check it isn't blown and check there is 12v at the "bike" side of the fuse holder.

Next step is the reg/rec. Test for 12V at the red wire.

Next step is the ignition switch connector block. Again 12V at the red wire.

If that's all ok, now test the switch. easiest way is to turn it on and check there is 12V at the black wire.

If that's working, one last test, go back to the reg/rec and check for 12V in the black wire there.

If that's working, I'm hell of a confused, your lights should be working.

EDIT: Frame earths can be tricksy things. I've seen it happen where the battery earth strap is connected to the engine near the starter motor but for some reason isn't making very good contact with the metal of the frame.

In fact, I've seen bikes where they connect an earth strap between the engine and the frame for this exact purpose.

To definatively rule out a frame earth problem, the simplest way is to make up a new earth strap (two ring terminals on a length of thick wire) and connect it between the battery negative and any bare metal bit of frame somewhere near the battery (you may need to scrape off a little paint to get a good contact).
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Xanthic]

Thanks for this Stinkwheel. I'll take a look at this tomorrow and let you know how I get on.

Stupid thing.
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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com

[Xanthic]

I've just found this:

"Your bike doesn't start at all

First - when you put the key in and turn it to the ON position, do the lights come on? If not, there definitely is a problem with either: the ignition switch or switch wiring, the battery, the battery connection (either end of the wires / terminals), your main fuse or fuse wiring. Trouble-shooting this problem is just a pain in the rear. Always start simple: unplug everything electrical, clean it all off, then plug it all back in. I would then put a known working battery in, and hook one end of a volt meter up to the ground of the bike and take the other end and trace the positive (+) line until I found a bad connection. This would be one of those "buy the manual" issues."

Here: https://www.cyclemaintenance.com/elec/electrical.htm

Pretty sweet!
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First & Current: Honda NSR 125 R1

Link fixed - https://apopandagumshield.wordpress.com