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| FuNkay MuNkay |
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FuNkay MuNkay
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 16 Sep 2010
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 Posted: 00:04 - 09 Mar 2011  Post subject: Parent Trouble |
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The usual parent trouble i have been seeing on here for the past few weeks has now hit me.
Basically, I am ment to be doing an intensive course at around the end of may/june for my license. And have been intending on buying a bandit, hornet sv650 or someting familiar as my first big bike, and have it restricted.
the problem is my parents seem to think i should buy a smaller and more expensive bike like a ninja 250, which i can't justify spending £2500+ on 
I dont know whether it's me being a bit naive wanting to get a 600cc with limited experience on a geared bike. But i know i can control and trust myself to take it steady.
So am i being a bit stupid getting one of these bigger bikes so early on. Or should I listen to my parents and get ninja 250?
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| N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty
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| Posted: 00:07 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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either way there gonna be 33hp so i woulda thought your parents would be happy for the cheaper option 
cc means nothing
____________________
'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011
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| FuNkay MuNkay |
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FuNkay MuNkay
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| Posted: 00:15 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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yeh i know. but they are the kind of parents that think they know everything
plus they are all cheaper to buy and insure, so im baffled why they wont let me  |
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| Truzo |
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Truzo
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| N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty
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| FuNkay MuNkay |
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FuNkay MuNkay
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| Posted: 01:02 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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it's all my money which i have worked my ass off for. to get a ninja i would have to be working my ass off for like another 4 months 
whereas if i were getting a 600 i would have the money now |
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| blurredman |
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blurredman
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| Posted: 01:11 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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| FuNkay MuNkay wrote: | money ass |
https://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/moritorus/moritorus1001/moritorus100100007/6264218.jpg
____________________
CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S, 1979 MZ TS150.
Current: 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 18k, 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 10k, 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (295cc) - 40k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 51k. |
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C-Pk
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 02:14 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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| FuNkay MuNkay wrote: | yeh i know. but they are the kind of parents that think they know everything
plus they are all cheaper to buy and insure, so im baffled why they wont let me |
Or, they simply know YOU too well......
Hand on heart, you going to keep the stranglers in the induction tract the full two years?
Have you given them any reasons.... like 'phoning at silly o'clock in the morning asking to be collected from hospital*..... or had them walk out to the car in the morning to find a heap of mangled metal on the drive?**
But, IF they know everything, then the line is, to get them to agree, that a 650 twin is actually no more powerful than a 400 'four', even de rstricted, and a restricted 600 'four' is lugging around a LOT more weight, as 'balast' to slow you down..... you know, like the way they handicap horses, race cars and bikes, making them carry lead plates!
*Err, like I NEVER did that..... buggers had gone away for the chuffin' weekend! Was dumped unceromoniousely outside Glaucester General A&E, in shock, after being stitched up, with a coppa trying to get me to admit to speeding and dangerouse driving, while nurse pulled gravel and denim out my leg, with no anasthetic, no idea where my bike was, having been meat waggoned accross the county, hardly a clue where I was, apart from it being about fifty miles from anyone I knew, with arms & legs strapped up in bandages, barely able to get the twenty pence, all the money I had on me, with no idea where a cash point might be, to try and phone round and find some one to come get me, becouse the 'sympathy' from the NHS didn't even extend to letting me use thier bludy telephone!
Oh, and the considerate coppers I left with the bike, to wait for the AA.... didn't..... Home, two days later, called the AA to find out where the bike had been taken, and they informed me they had treated it as a 'hoax' call, as there was no one where I told them to fetch me! Middlke of ringing around trying to find out who might know where the bike had got to, and leaving messages with Glaucester police, asking WTF the bike I left in THEIR care had got to, I got a call back from WALSALL police...... thirty five miles the other side of Brum, to ask me if my bike had been stolen! Because they'd found it!
THEN a month later Glaucester Hospital sent be a ruddy bill for the chuffing ambulence I never wanted!
**Also guilty! Bike AND car.... bike was rather easier to 'hide', car with the roof collapsed was slightly more difficult to try and cover up!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| FuNkay MuNkay |
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FuNkay MuNkay
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| Posted: 02:33 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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haha i am indeed a money ass i hate spending or wasting money without thought behind it. im not particulary looking into getting a modernish model, more like early 2000's i spose. apart from what i've already mentioned, what else is there available to me ? i was interested in the 400 range but they seem to be older and hard to get parts for if they do go bang. thankyou for the replies |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 08:58 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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Mmm. I'd expect the Ninja to make more power (restrictors being likely to over- rather than under- restrict), have better power-to-weight, and to accelerate as well as a restricted Big Boy Bike up to dead-in-a-ditch speeds because of lower gearing, if you're determined to crack on.
They'll both do over the legal limit, and the big bike is more visible and more stable.
Speaking purely for myself, as I've moved up to slightly bigger bikes (125 -> 250 -> 305) I find that I actually ride more slowly in 30 and 40mph limits because it doesn't feel like I have to rag it to keep momentum up and close up dangerous gaps - you know, just big enough so that Frank Flatcap thinks he can slip in to them.
And financially, bear in mind that come January 2013 and the 3rd Licensing Directive changes, the already small market for 250s is going to collapse, so you don't want to be stuck with one then.
So yes, if you actually keep it restricted, I'd agree that a big boy bike is safer, more sensible and more sellable than a Ninja 250.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
Last edited by Rogerborg on 01:49 - 10 Mar 2011; edited 1 time in total |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 15:41 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | And financially, bear in mind that come January 2013 and the 3rd Licensing Directive changes, the already small market for 250s is going to collapse, so you don't want to be stuck with one then. |
Why?
3rd Licencing directive, in effect, makes the 33bhp limit (possibly raised to 45bhp) permenant, not merely a 2 year restriction... AND intends a 500cc capacity cap, so you WONT be able to 'restrict' a 600 or 650, you'll HAVE to buy a bike UNDER 500cc (if that remains in what goes through the anus's of power)
In which case I would expect the 'big bike' market to suffer, and the currently depressed middle wight market between 125 & 600 to become VERY hot indeed, with very few second hand bikes out there any one can ride...... and a LOT of folk on new licences chasing them.
On THAT basis, on a 33bhp licence here and now, I would be looking for something like a GS500 or CB500, which meets the suggested licence remits, as well as current 33bhp restrictions.
Riding that until the 3rd Directive gets implemented, at which point ITS value is likely to significantly increase over what I paid for it, and the 600 I might have gone for is two years older, and hence cheaper, and MORE so, because no more newbies can go buy it and slap in restrictors........ so bargains will abound, and rather than, being left with an under valued 600 I can take the baffles out of... I have a 500, which I can sell for probably more than I paid for it, hopefully a healthy proffit, and can go look for a 600, 750, that's a real 'steal' in the newly depressed market sector.
I SUSPECT, when the 3rd Dircetive comes out, litre bikes will still hold prices reasonably, as people will still be trading 'up' to the bigger classes. While, thouse that have suffered the 3rd directive, and having to do a second test to get unrestricted licence, having done so, many will want the biggest reward for it they can get, and want to jump straight to the big legue and not merely gain an extra 100cc......
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Bendy |
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Bendy
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 17:32 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | | Rogerborg wrote: | And financially, bear in mind that come January 2013 and the 3rd Licensing Directive changes, the already small market for 250s is going to collapse, so you don't want to be stuck with one then. |
Why? |
Glad you asked!
It's because of the specific bike and power limits, which we can find by reading 2006/126/EC.
A new A2 license will allow riding:
| 2006/126/EC wrote: | motorcycles of a power not exceeding 35 kW and with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0,2 kW/kg and not derived from a vehicle of more than double its power |
So that's 35kW rather than the current 25kW restricted limit. There's no upper capacity limit for A2 in the final version of 2006/126/EC.
There's a lower limit for the test though. To sit an A2 test, you must be on a:
| 2006/126/EC wrote: | Motorcycle without sidecar, with a cylinder capacity of at least 400 cm3, and an engine power of at least 25 kW |
However, "400" bikes are typically 396 or 398cc, so this in effect means that to get an A2 license you'll train and pass on at least a "500", i.e. it'll be exactly the same process (and the same cost) as passing DAS now. Again, there's no upper limit - you may find your training school has upgraded their whole fleet to SV650s suitable for A tests, and that's what you learn and pass A2 on.
So, you've paid and trained for and passed A2 on at least a GS500. After you get your A2, you can now ride anything up to 35kW - which includes that GS500 that you're already familiar with.
Now, after doing that, are you really going to choose to go out and get yourself a 250 with half the capacity and over 1/3 less power than what you're used to? I'm really not seeing it.
Crib notes:
License categories now: 125/11kw -> any size/25kW (for 2 years then automatically...) -> any size/any power
License categories in 2013: 125/11kw -> any size/35kW (for 2 years until you pass...) -> any size/any power
How that's meant to encourage people to get 250-400cc bikes is quite beyond me, when 35kW is far closer to the power generated by 500cc+ than 25kW was.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 21:37 - 09 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | Glad you asked!
It's because of the specific bike and power limits, which we can find by reading 2006/126/EC.
A new A2 license will allow riding:
| 2006/126/EC wrote: | motorcycles of a power not exceeding 35 kW and with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0,2 kW/kg and not derived from a vehicle of more than double its power |
So that's 35kW rather than the current 25kW restricted limit. There's no upper capacity limit for A2 in the final version of 2006/126/EC.
There's a lower limit for the test though. To sit an A2 test, you must be on a:
| 2006/126/EC wrote: | Motorcycle without sidecar, with a cylinder capacity of at least 400 cm3, and an engine power of at least 25 kW |
However, "400" bikes are typically 396 or 398cc, so this in effect means that to get an A2 license you'll train and pass on at least a "500", i.e. it'll be exactly the same process (and the same cost) as passing DAS now. Again, there's no upper limit - you may find your training school has upgraded their whole fleet to SV650s suitable for A tests, and that's what you learn and pass A2 on.
So, you've paid and trained for and passed A2 on at least a GS500. After you get your A2, you can now ride anything up to 35kW - which includes that GS500 that you're already familiar with.
Now, after doing that, are you really going to choose to go out and get yourself a 250 with half the capacity and over 1/3 less power than what you're used to? I'm really not seeing it.
Crib notes:
License categories now: 125/11kw -> any size/25kW (for 2 years then automatically...) -> any size/any power
License categories in 2013: 125/11kw -> any size/35kW (for 2 years until you pass...) -> any size/any power
How that's meant to encourage people to get 250-400cc bikes is quite beyond me, when 35kW is far closer to the power generated by 500cc+ than 25kW was. |
Something seems a bit skew in there Roger....
As I understood it, the 3rd Dir provides the framework of legislation, and we (UK Voting Populus, represented by our notionally elected Members, passing or rejecting laws on our behalf laws written entirely by unelected faceless beurocrats) must create our own legislation that meets its requirements.
Hence the debates on the exact wording of OUR 'domestic' laws, to meet the EU requirement, which are still in the 'draft' stages, where query remains over exact specifications to be incorporated into the letter of the statutes held in Westminster.
Main one in question being that 500cc upper capacity limit for the 'middle' licence, and although Brussels don't SAY there has to be a capacity limit, UK Govt CAN elect to impose one...
(Technically they COULD insist on almost ANY other requirement on a motorcycle or its rider, they like... provided it doesn't contravene the Human Rights act, or 'impinge' on trade restrictions......or anything like that. Maybe that all motorcycles have to be painted flourescent green, with day glow pink spots of no less than 3cm diameter)
Meanwhile, that 45Kw upper limit in conjunction with the 90Kw original design limit, would essentially 'ban' most 600 'fours' built since about 1995, that have OE power figures >90bhp, Anyway
But, as you've provided it, it doesn't make sense. Forgetting the translation of the A1, A2 licence groups to tests. Frame Work is there for a Three tier licence system:
'Lightweight' Licence. Obtained by passing test on sub 120cc bike or restricted performance 125, allowing you to ride, basically 125 Learner Legal, As now, which will remain, for the moment,essentially redundant, as its exactly what you can ride on L Plates anyway. (unless, as I fear, they will subsequently try and remove 'Unsupervised L Plate Privilidges by changing the boundries so you can have an A1 licence by passing Theory Test and a beefed up CBT to get what's currently a 'provisional', and demanding a two year probation on that before you can go for the middleweight licence.)
'Middleweight' Licence. allowing you, after test, on a 'full' 125, to ride "Something" bigger than 125, but of limited performance. The Notion being, something 'Like' a current DAS or Newbie Big Bike, a CB500 or GS500, kind of thing.
'Unrestricted' Licence. allowing you to ride ANY bike, of any power. after taking a 'higher' test, on a bike MORE powerful than that allowed on a 'middleweight' licence, or at least AS powerful as the most powerful alllowed on that licence, IF you have held a middleweight licence for more than two years.
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but that's MY interpretation for the drafts that I've seen knocking around, and seems to have SOME kind of method in its madness.
Basically, any one can ride a 125 on L Plates, you take 125 test, qualify for a 500 twin, licence. Take higher test on 500 Twin, qualify for 'any bike'. Ignoring exemptions or exceptions for faster access, or the permutations of bike specifications......
What you have just said, though, SEEMS to suggest that you have to take the 'higher' test, to qualify for big bike licence, to be able to ride a middle weight?!?!
Surely that is wrong.
Process will be, 125 test, gets you 45Kw licence, that may or may not 'as yet' have a specific cc capacity cap set by Westminster....
In which case, the 250 to 500 market WILL be stimulated, as those people stepping up from a 125, having done thier 'first' test, will only get a restricted 'middleweight' licence, and wont be able to buy a CBR6oo or R6, and add after market restrictor kit, becouse original power is too high to be restricted, OR its engine will be too big, depending on which way the UK wording goes.
Question mark will be, over bikes like my CB750, or SV650's or Bandit 6's, which have only around 75bhp as originally made, whether they might still be allowed with after market restrictions.
And the 'encouragement' to get people onto those bikes is the fact that the licence wont automatically 'mature' after two years, to let them ride anything they like. So having passed the 'first' test, they'll be on those bikes indefinitely, unless they stick with it for two years, and put in for the 'second' test... for which the convolutions are likely to demand a DAS type course, unless that 'window' between the spec for what you can do the Second test on, and what you can ride on a Middle Wight licence, is like 125's, and there is JUST enough scope for a higher performance middleweight complient machine to be used for the Second Test.
If we look at the specs you have provided, 400+cc/25Kw(33bhp), for the bike you have to take a test on, well thats not a 125, so SURELY its the spec for a 'second test' bike.
45Kw restriction on the 'middleweight licence'.... possibly a capacity limit, but certainly limits to 'restrictability'....
But would make sense, becouse that would mean, you do 'first test' 125, step up to 500 Commuter Twin. Two years later, use commuter twin to do 'Second Test' to get full unrestricted licence.
UNLESS you are saying that to get a middleweight licence, after 2013, every one will have to do it on a DAS bike, rather than a 125?
I think you have something muddled up there Roger, possibly in the convolutions for rapid access, becouse otehrwise, it makes perfect sense. Allowed 125 on provisional, Test on 125 gets you a 500 licence. Test on 500, gets you unrestricted licence, ride anything.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 02:26 - 10 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Main one in question being that 500cc upper capacity limit for the 'middle' licence, and although Brussels don't SAY there has to be a capacity limit, UK Govt CAN elect to impose one... |
We could, but that's the first I'd heard of it. It does sound sensible, but it'd be awfully peculiar if Le Chap with a European A2 could ride a (35kW restricted) 600 onto the Chunnel but not be allowed to ride it off in Blighty because we've imposed an extra limitation on A2 license holders.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | But, as you've provided it, it doesn't make sense. |
Indeed, because 2006/126/EC doesn't make much sense.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | UNLESS you are saying that to get a middleweight licence, after 2013, every one will have to do it on a DAS bike, rather than a 125? |
2006/126/EC says exactly that. I quoted the license limits and test vehicle requirements above, and provided a link to the Directive, which I suggest you have a read of - searching for "A2" gets to most of the meat. It's plain enough: pass A1 or A2, get access to A1 or A2 class bikes, not the next class up.
That leads to 2 bits of craziness.
First, A1 remains just as pointless as it currently is. It just removes the Learner restrictions, it doesn't give you access to anything bigger. In theory it also starts the clock running on a 2 year countdown to access to A2, but the DfT consultation response said we're going to make 19 the age for direct access to A2.
So what 17 year old is going to bother paying for training for an A1 test rather than just doing a CBT abd riding on L plates for 2 years? It means they're less likely to get training beyond the CBT, just when they need it the most!
Then there's A2, where if you apply both the test minimum and the license maximum, you'll have to train and test on a 400cc+ bike making at least 25kW but not more than 35kW. The only road bike sold in the UK in the last decade that ticks those boxes as stock is the GS500, which is just under 35kW. The other 500 twins make over 35kW, so strictly speaking, you shouldn't be riding them on an A2 provisional license. There are no road bikes currently for sale that are suitable for a (strict) A2 test, and nothing bigger than a Ninja 250 fits within the power limit. Bonkers.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but that's MY interpretation for the drafts that I've seen knocking around, and seems to have SOME kind of method in its madness. |
Can I ask where you've seen these drafts? I don't recall seeing anything that diverged significantly from 2006/126/EC in the DfT public consultation that went out in March 2010, or the summary produced afterwards.
I know they're quite capable of changing it around completely since then though, which is why I'm so hacked off that they're late with publishing the details. 
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | What you have just said, though, SEEMS to suggest that you have to take the 'higher' test, to qualify for big bike licence, to be able to ride a middle weight?!?!
Surely that is wrong. |
Again, I'd invite you to read the 3rd Directive. We'll have to wait and see what the DfT make of it - publication is coming on for 2 months overdue now.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| warped one |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 09:31 - 10 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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All right, who's got the password for warped's account now?
You need to stop posting sense, it's not even remotely credible.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| warped one |
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warped one
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cornish
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| Posted: 14:08 - 18 Mar 2011 Post subject: |
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hi there,
with regard to the exact bike, there is plenty of good advice from people who know more than me about bikes on this thread. So, my advice to you regarding your op is that it is your money and your decision. This thread alone will ensure that you are better informed than your parents to make the decision as to which bike to choose and at the end of the day it is you that will be riding it so you need to choose a bike that you are happy on, feel safe with and enjoy riding. Good Luck.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 14 years, 208 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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