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TheSmiler
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| Glenben92 |
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Glenben92
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 Posted: 04:35 - 28 Apr 2011  Post subject: |
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They already do tell you the very bare basic shit. What to check and how to check it, oil levels, suspension, tyres, brakes, lights etc. You really think they could then go into how to fix various problems on an already hectic day of observation and tuition?
I can see what you mean but telling someone how to put petrol in a bike!? How about telling someone how to put a key into the ignition? Or how to turn the handlebars? where do you draw the line? You have to assume SOME common sense in people, if they have any specific questions, they can ask without problem.
I personally find CBT too simple and quick to allow someone to control a 125cc bike capable of 70mph and therefore capable of easily killing a person. If CBT were abolished you'd get a lot less of these pedboi types and arseholes ripping around on DT125s in tracksuit bottoms and a hoodie giving bikers a shit name.
At the end of that day, you can't teach somebody EVERYTHING no matter how much tuition you give them. It's down to the rider to learn the basics then identify their weak spots and reinforce their own knowledge through further training or even just looking around the tinterweb.
I'd like to mention that I've always been of the opinion, however, that a driver should understand the basic principle of workings behind an engine and basic vehicle systems before they're allowed control of them. People who drive or ride and haven't a clue of how to do ANYTHING or what the fuck's going on in the engine really boil my piss. I believe in learning EVERYTHING about my bikes so I know the ins and outs of a fart. It means that I can easily, cheaply and quickly fix any problems that may arise
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99 Yamaha FZS 600 - 
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TheSmiler
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Posted: 05:04 - 28 Apr 2011  Post subject: |
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| Glenben92 wrote: | They already do tell you the very bare basic shit. What to check and how to check it, oil levels, suspension, tyres, brakes, lights etc. You really think they could then go into how to fix various problems on an already hectic day of observation and tuition?
I can see what you mean but telling someone how to put petrol in a bike!? How about telling someone how to put a key into the ignition? Or how to turn the handlebars? where do you draw the line? You have to assume SOME common sense in people, if they have any specific questions, they can ask without problem.
I personally find CBT too simple and quick to allow someone to control a 125cc bike capable of 70mph and therefore capable of easily killing a person. If CBT were abolished you'd get a lot less of these pedboi types and arseholes ripping around on DT125s in tracksuit bottoms and a hoodie giving bikers a shit name.
At the end of that day, you can't teach somebody EVERYTHING no matter how much tuition you give them. It's down to the rider to learn the basics then identify their weak spots and reinforce their own knowledge through further training or even just looking around the tinterweb.
I'd like to mention that I've always been of the opinion, however, that a driver should understand the basic principle of workings behind an engine and basic vehicle systems before they're allowed control of them. People who drive or ride and haven't a clue of how to do ANYTHING or what the fuck's going on in the engine really boil my piss. I believe in learning EVERYTHING about my bikes so I know the ins and outs of a fart. It means that I can easily, cheaply and quickly fix any problems that may arise |
It may seem illogical that they should go into how to fill the tank up with petrol and how to fix a few problems that may occur with the bike.. also may seem that initiative should be taken which i agree with however these are just some of the questions that new drivers are shy (dont want to get embarrased) to ask. Also checking the fuel on a car is a lot different to a bike as you are aware; you are never sure of how much you have in especially with no reader.
Simple 20 min run through which would aid the biker and car driver a lifetime of knowledge. In my opinion would decrease accidents as well with little things that go wrong on the bike could easily cause a collision. Or maybe putting this on an extra course a bit like pass plus but for maintenance.
It should be the duty of instuctors or someone else to make sure that the driver knows how to maintain his vehicle there is no poin in him or her driving if they dont know how to fix it.
You can't teach someone everything I agree with you however you can at least make sure that they are aware of the little things yeah checking oil levels, and the other stuff is important but so is other maintenance.
Your opinion is similar to mine, however I would not rush into replacing anything without at least someone with me just so I dont mess it up and cause an accident waiting to happen.
If a maintenance course was set up like pass plus it could decrease the amount of your premium as it would mean no stupid call outs. Like changing a wheel on a car is easy to do but not when you dont know how to do it. |
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Glenben92
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| Posted: 06:25 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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| TheSmiler wrote: |
It may seem illogical that they should go into how to fill the tank up with petrol and how to fix a few problems that may occur with the bike.. also may seem that initiative should be taken which i agree with however these are just some of the questions that new drivers are shy (dont want to get embarrased) to ask. Also checking the fuel on a car is a lot different to a bike as you are aware; you are never sure of how much you have in especially with no reader. |
It's MUCH easier to accurately know how much petrol is in your tank using a bike with no gauge as opposed to a car with a gauge. Fuel gauges are HUGELY inaccurate, they're just a very rough guide. On a bike you can look inside the bloody tank and see how much is in there! also, we have a reserve for fuel, which cars don't. This means that if we DO "run out" we havent actually ran out and can be on our way and into a petrol station under our own steam.
It's the job of the instructor (and part of the responsibility taken on by the student) respectively, to offer opportunities to ask questions/not make students feel threatened and to ask questions about necessary things if unsure. i.e. if you can't accept the responsibility to ask a question which may mean the difference between safety and danger, then you can't be given the responsibility of a 70mph weapon.
| TheSmiler wrote: |
Simple 20 min run through which would aid the biker and car driver a lifetime of knowledge. In my opinion would decrease accidents as well with little things that go wrong on the bike could easily cause a collision. Or maybe putting this on an extra course a bit like pass plus but for maintenance. |
These ARE the things mentioned, suspension, tyres, brakes, oil and coolant levels, steering function etc. Aside from these it would be very specific part failure, which WOULD have to come completely separately and would also have to be pretty comprehensive to be of any use. I also doubt this would be popular enough to make it feasible because information like this can be found online/in literature easily attainable etc.
| TheSmiler wrote: |
Your opinion is similar to mine, however I would not rush into replacing anything without at least someone with me just so I dont mess it up and cause an accident waiting to happen.
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Bike training, unfortunately, can't be a complete course in mechanical principles and labour! This is down to the owner to either take somewhere to be repaired or to gain the skill themselves
| TheSmiler wrote: |
If a maintenance course was set up like pass plus it could decrease the amount of your premium as it would mean no stupid call outs. Like changing a wheel on a car is easy to do but not when you dont know how to do it. |
In theory, yes, but looking at how little ANY advanced qualification brings premiums down, i'd say (just like the others) it woudn't be worth it from a monetary point of view. I think it would be a nice idea, but I personally doubt that a training scheme has any real advantages over other methods of learning that would make it worthwhile to put into practice.
I feel like i'm really shooting you down here, sorry for that. I do think you have a very valid point that I agree with, but I think that extra maintenance orientated tuition would have to be introduced into the process of acquiring a full license, rather than at CBT level. Of course, you've then got the problem of differing vehicle specifics to take into account; Are you going to teach people how to maintain 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines? shaft drive, belt drive, CVT and chain drive? points ignition and CDI? There are a lot of variables depending on what bike you own, this is another argument for the merits of learning on your own, rather than trying to set a course up to teach it all.
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99 Yamaha FZS 600 -
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TheSmiler
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| Posted: 07:07 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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| Glenben92 wrote: |
It's MUCH easier to accurately know how much petrol is in your tank using a bike with no gauge as opposed to a car with a gauge. Fuel gauges are HUGELY inaccurate, they're just a very rough guide. On a bike you can look inside the bloody tank and see how much is in there! also, we have a reserve for fuel, which cars don't. This means that if we DO "run out" we havent actually ran out and can be on our way and into a petrol station under our own steam. |
Yes we can look inside the tank, however may be just me feeling a bit safer with the fuel gauge just because I dont trust my own judgement on looking in the tank all the time.
| Glenben92 wrote: |
It's the job of the instructor (and part of the responsibility taken on by the student) respectively, to offer opportunities to ask questions/not make students feel threatened and to ask questions about necessary things if unsure. i.e. if you can't accept the responsibility to ask a question which may mean the difference between safety and danger, then you can't be given the responsibility of a 70mph weapon. |
Yes it is part of the responsibility of the student to ask questions but, would you truly admit that a bunch of 17year olds would ask that if they were there with a bunch of 40year olds.
| Glenben92 wrote: |
These ARE the things mentioned, suspension, tyres, brakes, oil and coolant levels, steering function etc. Aside from these it would be very specific part failure, which WOULD have to come completely separately and would also have to be pretty comprehensive to be of any use. I also doubt this would be popular enough to make it feasible because information like this can be found online/in literature easily attainable etc.
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Well I wasnt fully sure im yet to book my cbt only recieved my student loan yesterday so currently getting numbers of the bike shops to ring up for bike quotes. Does include checking the plugs or changing the battery that is on every bike and that is just one of the simple things that could cause a crash?
| Glenben92 wrote: |
Bike training, unfortunately, can't be a complete course in mechanical principles and labour! This is down to the owner to either take somewhere to be repaired or to gain the skill themselves |
Yes you can take it to a mechanic to get it fixed and they take your arm or leg just for doing it. You can't gain a skill without practising it and practising it is likely to cause accidents if you do something wrong which is kind of a catch 22. Also I know that my friend asked if he could watch how they repaired his car at a garage and got turned down because he was told he would be in the way.
| Glenben92 wrote: |
In theory, yes, but looking at how little ANY advanced qualification brings premiums down, i'd say (just like the others) it woudn't be worth it from a monetary point of view. I think it would be a nice idea, but I personally doubt that a training scheme has any real advantages over other methods of learning that would make it worthwhile to put into practice. |
Well pass plus would of saved me £200 of my insurance of a 91 ford fiesta 1.0 down to £4800. So they do help to reduce it even if it is slightly. Even if it wasnt made into a regulated advanced qualifications this might be helpful for a repair centre to earn a bit of extra cash. I know most of my friends would rather learn to repair their cars (even if they had bikes) than to pay hefty premiums. The main advantage this would bring is that you can alter the bike under supervision learning whilst working making sure that you dont cause any deadly mistakes that could cost you your life on your bike. You can't get the same experience from reading on a forum or by watching a video, you can get some but not the same.
| Glenben92 wrote: |
I feel like i'm really shooting you down here, sorry for that. I do think you have a very valid point that I agree with, but I think that extra maintenance orientated tuition would have to be introduced into the process of acquiring a full license, rather than at CBT level. Of course, you've then got the problem of differing vehicle specifics to take into account; Are you going to teach people how to maintain 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines? shaft drive, belt drive, CVT and chain drive? points ignition and CDI? There are a lot of variables depending on what bike you own, this is another argument for the merits of learning on your own, rather than trying to set a course up to teach it all. |
Its ok I think my business mind is working overdrive doesn't help when you don't know the true facts to begin with.
I'll agree that it is more likely to help with a full licence however would say a minimal add on to the cbt would have to be included as you are still going to be riding the bike on the cbt.
Teaching people how to manage the different engines could be related by looking at different courses, for example you could have a combined 2 stroke/4stroke course that would envolve the key extras it doesnt take that long at all im sure .. or you could go for seperate and have the bargain basement deal where you pick what you would rather learn to do so you have a choice in the extas. Different courses affecting different prices of course.
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tk338
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Posted: 08:36 - 28 Apr 2011  Post subject: |
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I have read all this thread, and as someone who did worry about some of the things you've mentioned, I would say do the CBT and you'll be given all the basic maintenance you need, then buy a Haynes manual for the bike you buy. For any other problems you encounter, it is 2011, unless you buy a really obscure bike type the name of the bike into google and the problem and someone will have had it before you.
Filling up with fuel, you honestly don't need to be taught either, you put a stick in a hole and squeeze it when it stops, put it back lol. You learn about how to fine tune it by making mistakes (petrol covered gloves ftw!) and by making mistakes is the best way to learn. If you are worried about it, there are youtube videos .
Again finally you'll find fuel will be something you'll obsess over. Try and squeeze every last mile from the tank but still make it to the petrol station. A few bikes bikes do have a fuel gauge but I prefer to set my trip counter and measure it that way, I know I have 40-50 miles when it starts flashing.
I don't mean to be rude in any parts of this, i think your mind is going abit into over drive lol, you'll be shown on the CBT enough to have a road worthy bike, and for the basic maintenance you'll need to learn by yourself, but now with the invention of youtube, you should more be thinking not is there a video of it, but is the video available in 720 or 1080p .
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Ichy
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| Posted: 08:48 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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When I used to do CBT training I would try to give as much knowledge as possible, even down to chain adjustment and how to fill up with fuel with the proviso that they read the owners manual. Unfortunately, on far to many occasions you could tell from their faces that they would forget it within 5 minutes. How many remember bestcops?
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TheSmiler
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| Posted: 09:04 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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| tk338 wrote: | I have read all this thread, and as someone who did worry about some of the things you've mentioned, I would say do the CBT and you'll be given all the basic maintenance you need, then buy a Haynes manual for the bike you buy. For any other problems you encounter, it is 2011, unless you buy a really obscure bike type the name of the bike into google and the problem and someone will have had it before you.
Filling up with fuel, you honestly don't need to be taught either, you put a stick in a hole and squeeze it when it stops, put it back lol. You learn about how to fine tune it by making mistakes (petrol covered gloves ftw!) and by making mistakes is the best way to learn. If you are worried about it, there are youtube videos .
Again finally you'll find fuel will be something you'll obsess over. Try and squeeze every last mile from the tank but still make it to the petrol station. A few bikes bikes do have a fuel gauge but I prefer to set my trip counter and measure it that way, I know I have 40-50 miles when it starts flashing.
I don't mean to be rude in any parts of this, i think your mind is going abit into over drive lol, you'll be shown on the CBT enough to have a road worthy bike, and for the basic maintenance you'll need to learn by yourself, but now with the invention of youtube, you should more be thinking not is there a video of it, but is the video available in 720 or 1080p . |
Its the business mind kicking in, had to do a pdp (boring expressive yar de yar) so you may be right ive even been thinking about custom bike carriers, although I do really love the lwlandrover bike carrier idea. The only problem with youtube is you cant ask questions and get advice at the same time but i must be a fuss pot, will change in time.
| Marki wrote: | When I used to do CBT training I would try to give as much knowledge as possible, even down to chain adjustment and how to fill up with fuel with the proviso that they read the owners manual. Unfortunately, on far to many occasions you could tell from their faces that they would forget it within 5 minutes. How many remember bestcops? |
Yes they may forget it in 5 mins however I bet some of them still remember it to this day, and made them better riders for knowing it.
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| Posted: 09:35 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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CBT was introduced to give training for a basic level of control. If you want specific advice on how to maintain your bike - use the internet!
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| Posted: 10:05 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: Re: New Drivers could do with a change (your view ?) |
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| TheSmiler wrote: | Now I have heard that they are doing away with the cbt in 2013 with new changes |
Where did you hear that?
Based on the DfT's conclusion to their 2010 consultation on 2006/126/EC, the UK will be keeping the CBT and unaccompanied L riding on 11kW 125s.
What I've speculated is that this will put the UK in a peculiar position. 2006/126/EC makes no mention of learner or provisional riding, and the current CBT does not meet the 2006/126/EC requirements for an A1 test or license.
However, if anything changes, it will be to introduce more training and testing for learners, not less.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Posted: 11:07 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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I think the CBT is an excellent worthwhile day, but you should only have to do it once !   |
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| Posted: 11:55 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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Don't know if I just made this up but I remember that before the CBT you could have a learner licence for two years then you had to have a year off if you didn't pass your test. Does that sound right?
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| Posted: 13:53 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: Re: New Drivers could do with a change (your view ?) |
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| TheSmiler wrote: | I over heard [that the CBT is going in 2013] at a local bike shop when i rang up the other day, most prob dont know there a** from there ellbows but you never know if its true. |
Thanks. Mmm, now you've got me thinking. The DfT's publication of our implementation of the 3rd directive is now more than 3 months overdue. It's just possible that they've spotted the problem with the CBT as well.
At this point, it's all speculation, until we actually see the published legislation.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
Last edited by Rogerborg on 16:08 - 28 Apr 2011; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: 18:30 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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CBT has only came in over here in NI this year, probably a good thing as I had absolutely no idea what I was doing on my bike and was a danger to everyone being honest  
But a month or so later and all was grand! However I wouldn't recommend it as a learning style lol |
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| Posted: 21:56 - 28 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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| Posted: 00:02 - 29 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure that's what the 3rd Directive intended.
But I'm also fairly certain that it expects a simple theory test that takes about 5 or 10 minutes during a 1 day (c.f. "7 hours") training and test, i.e. effectively a souped-up CBT with the 50kph swerve and stop slotted in before the 2 hour road ride, rather than the UK's burdensome process of jumping through 3 separate hoops on different days. We really do like to over-complicate things here.
And while I do agree that young riders should be trained better, the problem with that is that if we make the process of getting on a bike too complex or expensive, the next generation of bikers just won't bother. If unaccompanied L riding were removed, 17 year olds would be be looking at committing £500 minimum on training and test fees to get a license to ride a 125 (and only a 125). That's still cheap compared to a car license, but it's expensive compared to the price of a basic used commuter bike.
There's no perfect solution, but I fear that the 3rd Directive is going to result in fewer new bikers, which means fewer new bikes, parts for them, MOT stations and garages, and less awareness of bikes by non-bikers. Really, it's the more the merrier.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 14 years, 280 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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How on earth did you reach that logic? Your suggesting that less people would ride bikes if they didn't have to pay out £100 every two years for the privilege.
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