Another what track bike thread...

[T0MMY]

I'm wanting to get into bike trackdays as car ones are getting too expensive so I did my first bike one at Snetterton recently on my Honda CB-1 and I'm doing another one tomorrow at Bedford.

It was fun enough but it was literally the slowest bike on track and I was getting held up a lot by the guys that were slower in the corners (it was a novice only day) but far faster on the straights so I'm thinking of getting something a little quicker.

I don't want to spend much more than £1200 and I want something still road legal although I rarely ride on the road so it doesn't need to be practical.

I previously had a CBR600F and I know them quite well so that seems an obvious choice plus there are so many around that parts are cheap and plentiful. I guess SRADs (600 or 750) and ZX6Rs are my other options and are probably faster but less reliable maybe? Thundercats are cheap but seem a bit heavy and then there's also ZXR750s and YZF750s which might be fun...have I missed anything? What's the best choice for something fun and reliable but cheap?

[supZ]

personally i cant recommend a CBR600F enough.

cheap to buy (especially the already track ready versions with loadsa spares) and cheap to replace parts.

plus the steelie frame can take a knock if you bin it.

tis what i've done. converted my F to a trackbike and its been a brilliant machine. a few hundred quid to buy track fairing, sprockets, rearsets, brackets etc.. and i've got a decent trackbike.


if you want something a little more focused an early RR would do you nicely.

make a bracket to mount a brake light and the no. plate and get a daylight mot sorted too.

or were you more intended on being able to ride normally on the road rather than just having it road legal? in that case id probably say get the RR and just change the fairing/remove the lights and mirrors when you go on track.

if you do get an F and keep it road legal one thing i would do is get the rearsets and remove the centre stand for more clearance.
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CBR954RR - Daily toy
CBR600RR - Trackbike

[T0MMY]

I don't think I can get anywhere near an RR for my budget sadly as I really like them (nor an R6 for that matter).

I'm thinking along the lines of a fully road legal bike but track plastics, downgeared, decent tyres (I really like the Power One 2CTs on my CB-1) and rearsets. Not fussed about it being mega focussed and competitive but the CB-1 is SO slow that even when i was getting on the throttle over a second or two earlier than someone in front I was still not quite getting past (or alongside for them to notice that you are going quicker and should be let through). Even on my old CBR I would have been the slowest bike in my group but not by such a big margin.

[G]

I wouldn't get overly focused on model if you're buying a 'track bike' - presuming it's had a few mods, the setup and mods will make more difference than the base bike.
If you are buying a stock bike (probably not so good value relatively), then I'd go for an early R6 if possible - they're pretty good stock or a GSXR next.

Any modded >95 sports 600 should be fine however, but for that money I'd be hoping for a >99 model.

Oh and sounds like you need to get on the throttle EVEN earlier .
What group are you riding in out of interest?
(To be fair, I do prefer a 600 class bike for track days because I get frustrated with the 600-1000cc bikes when I'm on smaller.)

[T0MMY]

R6 at that price range is hard to find I'd say. GSXR SRADs seem to be about for that money but I'm not sure about reliability. Can't decide between 600 or 750 either.

The one day I've done so far was a novice only day and I was definitely one of the quicker guys as almost nobody overtook me and I was getting past a lot of people but to be fair there were some very slow riders out there just finding their way.

For Bedford I've booked into the novice group as my bike is so slow and it's only my second trackday but I think I'd probably have booked into intermediate on a half decent bike. It'll be a good chance to see how quick the other groups look anyway to see where I'd fit in.

I think I have a lot of confidence in the grip and good feel for when the bike is on the limit but my lines are inconsistent and untidy. I spent much of my first trackday taking weird lines, diving up the inside in braking zones or riding round the outside of people to get past so this time I want to concentrate on getting the best lap times and maybe just find space on the track by letting people get ahead or whatever to concentrate on my own riding.

As for getting on the throttle even earlier...when your bike tops out at 110mph coming out of a 90mph corner there's not a lot more you can do

[G]

[Deano]

I think with a budget like that just find something that has sorted suspension you could get a 99 r1 for that price just post up on motoforum.net your budget and you will get replys to whats going.
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Dean Stone #777
EMRA 2012 final standings, Formula 600s 3rd, Superstock 600s 3rd.
www.triplesevenracing.co.uk: www.ljmotorcyclerepairs.co.uk www.gettaylored.co.uk BN RaceScience, Now officially run out of money to carry on racing

[stinkwheel]

It's entirely possible that you don't need a different bike, but a different track. See how you get on at Bedford

Also, I'd have thought you should be getting 120 out of a CB1.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[G]

[T0MMY]

[MarJay]

A CB-1 should be fine, although Snetterton isn't ideal for tiny bikes TBH.

As Stinkwheel says, now you've got your first trackday under your belt, I'd try somewhere like Cadwell Park Its a lot more technical but it is a lot more suited to smaller bikes IMO.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F; Cheap project: CBR900RR FireBlade
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[T0MMY]

[G]

Few seconds at a higher speed is what you need if you're only just losing out .

Oh and don't be looking at the speedo - keep an eye on the track ahead and consider lap times .

[T0MMY]

[G]

Be willing to bet 'he' could.

As an idea, at a 'pace' day at the old Snetterton layout I was doing around 1:21 I think, on a 64hp SV650 (might have been 67). Ok, it had sticky tyres etc; I was lapping at similar times to three litre bikes in the inters group.
(Not a great time, to be honest.)

Normally I'd be riding in the Fast group, but it was done by time and the Fast group was full of BSB style riders - including the reigning British Superstock champion, his team mate and friends.

Lap record for that class (72hp bike) is 1:15.8!
That's faster than most track litre bikes in your average fast group would be doing.
Sure, your bike's not up to spec, but a really good rider will be able to still make full use of it - keeping braking really late, etc.

As an idea, when were you braking for the esses chicane?
From what I remember, a good minitwin rider hardly has any upright braking zone - and they'll be going a chunk faster than you, though with better tyres etc (I once manged to highside from the front there by doing a stoppy midcorner!)

[T0MMY]

Thing you need to remember is that this is a totally unmodified commuter bike with non adjustable suspension and a single disc up front I could make it better but what's the point in starting with something like that?

The Esses...that's the bit just after the bridge right? I'll have to look at the video I recorded but I think I was braking pretty late for it and trail braking quite deep into the corner for the much tighter second part. That was one area where I was taking HUGE chunks out of the bikes I was following as most guys were slowing down enough for the first part that they could do the second part without having to brake mid corner. I actually think I was carrying too much speed into there most of the time and perhaps should have sacrificed some entry speed to get on the power earlier at the exit.

EDIT:- Just watched a bit on my phone...hard to tell as the sound is just wind noise and the camera is on the fork leg so doesn't dive under braking but I think I was braking at the 50m board then scrubbing speed all the way through the left hander then hard on the brakes for a second whilst flicking the bike from left to right to scrub off enough speed for the tight right hander. Sounds pretty scrappy but I caught some very nice superbikes through that bit

EDIT 2:- Looking at it I remember now thinking I shouldn't be doing the last bit of hard braking but should lose enough speed in the left hander that the flick into the right hander is smoother and doesn't need more braking. i.e. I should probably carry less speed into the left or brake even harder whilst the bike's leant over but, you know, it's my bike not my race team's, I don't want to bin it I also got used to doing that as I passed quite a lot of people round the left hander so carried the speed there so I got ahead then didn't worry too much about sacrificing the right hander a little as then they realised I was there so didn't just power past me again on the straight.

[G]

Yea, just after the bridges - sounds like you were doing ok.

And yes, a commuter bike. But there's still a big differences between us mortals and those that can keep a bike on the limit ALL the time.
I've been at a point where I've been able to stay on the point of rear wheel traction in a corner (fairly easy).
Coming out of a corner it's harder to keep right on that limit all the time. Sure, you might get a bit of a slide, but to be able to reign it back a touch, then keep it at that limit right from the apex until WOT is much harder.
Even harder probably, is then doing the same in to a corner on the brakes. Again, I've pushed it past the limit (both crashing and not), but never got the 'feel' of being able to hold it there.
And that's what separates a top racer - and is why those last few seconds are so hard.

[T0MMY]

Well anyway, I'll be interested to see how I get on at Bedford but it looks like I'll be at WOT into half the corners there and still not going fast enough Very long straight too.

Only downer is it looks like it could rain tomorrow and though I'm sure you'll say I'll learn plenty pushing it in the rain, I'd rather just be able to spank it round in the dry to be honest

[MarJay]

I don't think the bike will be holding you back on your first trackday, but I think that *confidence* in the bike might possibly be holding you back.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F; Cheap project: CBR900RR FireBlade
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[T0MMY]

I wouldn't say the bike was holding me back in the corners but it is on the straights. I've no doubt a better rider could get more from it grip wise but I also wouldn't say I lack confidence in the grip either, I pushed it to the point that I had slides at both ends on occasion and was breaking later and harder than just about everybody else I saw despite the crappy braking system.

I think I need to work on my body position too though as I ground out the pegs a bit despite having previously lost my hero blobs.

[MarJay]

The best fun I've had on trackdays was with my RGV250. Everybody had a faster bike in a straight line, but it was great in corners.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F; Cheap project: CBR900RR FireBlade
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[T0MMY]

Well I kind of feel the same way and despite the soft wobbly suspension I have no problems with the cornering ability, the problem is the lack of grunt which means:-

1) I get stuck behind the slower riders. I'd like to ride around with people of a similar ability to try to learn something but if they're cornering at a similar pace to me they'd pull out so much distance on the straights I'd never see them again.
2) There are some corners at Snetterton (like the bombhole) where I was flat out and needed more power to reach the limits of the bike.
3) It's less of a challenge powering out of corners as you can be hamfisted with the throttle and unless you're really on the ragged edge it won't spin up the wheel.

I also think the lack of a fairing makes a big difference as there was a CBR400 in the other group that seemed to be hitting a much higher speed on the main straight than me and from memory my old NC23 used to indicate 140 or so quite easily.

The closest tracks to me are Snetterton, Brands Hatch and Bedford and all of them look like they'd be more fun on a faster bike to be honest. I'd love to try mine at Cadwell but it's a long way to ride back when you're knackered and can't be arsed to sit on the motorway for 2 hours squaring off your nice sticky track tyres.

[G]

I've spent half a day at Cadwell in inters getting frustrated by an R1 while I was on a RS250.
Did eventually get and stay past, but found it pretty annoying with the same story every corner. Similarly at Snetterton previously mentioned.

That's not to say the bike couldn't do it easily - just needs bigger balls/skill than I have.

I DO find that once you get up to 600cc, the power gap is closed enough that you don't really have so many issues, at trackdays at least.

[T0MMY]

Yeah that's the thing, even on my old CBR600 I would have been the slowest bike in the group as everyone else was on litre bikes or at least 2 or 3 year old 600s. I'm happy to have a slower bike and quite enjoyed the challenge of getting past faster machines but that's really not easy when you have literally 1/3 - 1/4 the power AND poor brakes AND poor handling.

To be honest though, I've done one trackday, what do I know? I'll see how I go at Bedford then decide what to do. I just don't see the point in ruining what is quite a tidy CB-1 then changing it anyway when I do out grow it. I'd rather sell it now whilst it's worth something and get a cheap sportsbike again which for an extra £500 doubles the power and instantly upgrades the chassis and brakes. Also it would then be easier to find race scrubs and second hand track parts.

[T0MMY]

So to get this back on track...there's quite a few cheap Thundercats around; good choice or too heavy and touring orientated?