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Historic Tax and Registering a US bike in the UK?

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koolio
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: 21:07 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Historic Tax and Registering a US bike in the UK? Reply with quote
Anyone have any idea if I can take a bike from the US manufactured in 1968 and register it in the UK without losing the historic tax?

I'm aware that if I register it over here the registration date will be 2011, just how do I prove the bike was manufactured on the date it says it was on the VIN? And hence keep the historic tax?
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Re: Historic Tax and Registering a US bike in the UK? Reply with quote
koolio wrote:
Anyone have any idea if I can take a bike from the US manufactured in 1968 and register it in the UK without losing the historic tax?

I'm aware that if I register it over here the registration date will be 2011, just how do I prove the bike was manufactured on the date it says it was on the VIN? And hence keep the historic tax?


Original reg document from the US?

Shouldn't be a problem to be honest. Getting an age related plate is piss easy. Friend's dad restores E-Types and has never had a problem. His most recent project came from a pond in Sweden or something.
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kestrel
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
When you register the bike you can apply for an age related plate. You can get proof of age from one of the vintage bike clubs, ie Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club. Make sure thet you have ALL of the paperwork relating to the importation and customs. Equally important is that you MUST have a bill of sale to prove ownership of the bike.
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tatters
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
My father has imported a few BSA from the USA and one from Hong kong from what l remember.


The DVLA will issue a age related plate (1968) once the age of the bike can be proved (owners club etc), of course you will have to pay import tax and VAT which will be at a lower rate as its a historic vehicle, the owners club will be able to use the VIN number to prove the make/model/year of the bike.


What bike is it?
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koolio
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PostPosted: 22:14 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
I forgot to mention that all that is left of the bike now is a frame and VIN number and no papers and that I'd like to rebuild it and modify it.

Its a Jap bike and I'd like to update its looks to a 70s bike and that includes the engine.

So if I take it to a vintage club there is no way they will recognise it as the original bike but a late 70s model.

Any thoughts would be welcome.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Legitimately it should probably get a Q plate.

Registering an older bike is fairly easy. MOT, proof of age and insurance on the chassis number (which is the hard bit - most companies will only give such cover for a very limited period).

Proof of age on a bike made from bits will be a bit iffy.

All the best

Keith
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kestrel
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Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
koolio wrote:
I forgot to mention that all that is left of the bike now is a frame and VIN number and no papers and that I'd like to rebuild it and modify it.

Its a Jap bike and I'd like to update its looks to a 70s bike and that includes the engine.

So if I take it to a vintage club there is no way they will recognise it as the original bike but a late 70s model.

Any thoughts would be welcome.


I don't know how you'd get on with that one. I registered an imported Yamaha a few years ago and applied to the VJMC for a proof of age certificate. I had to complete the application form and return it to them with rubbings of the VIN number from the frame and from the engine number. I also had to provide two profile pictures of the bike taken from both sides.
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kestrel
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just had a look on the VJMC site. It looks like you may end up with a Q plate.

https://www.vjmc.com/dating-service.html
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Teflon-Mike
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Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 29 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
koolio wrote:
I forgot to mention that all that is left of the bike now is a frame and VIN number and no papers and that I'd like to rebuild it and modify it.

Its a Jap bike and I'd like to update its looks to a 70s bike and that includes the engine.

So if I take it to a vintage club there is no way they will recognise it as the original bike but a late 70s model.

Any thoughts would be welcome.


Before they will issue a number plate, the bike has to have an MOT... test is logged against the VIN number.

To gain registration you need to provide notice of authenticity; as well as proof of legal ownership; they take numerouse things as evidence of age and originality, but they favour official importers records search; or recognised 'specialist' club, say Vitnage Japanes Motorcycle Club, or Honda Owners Club, etc....

That organisation have to be convinced of the vehicles originality FIRST, and remember, a lot of these Classic buff's are part number freaks, they WILL spot a 1977 model points cover on a 1968 bike, and grumble that the cross head screws are the 'wrong' bit form...

They will ALSO know the DVLA registration requirements and the 'points' system to retain an original UK reg no, or gain an age related plate on an import...

Ie: if the bike is modified, then SVA rules will apply; if the frame has been 'cut' it will be deemed modified; and not previousely registered in this country, WONT be eligible for UK age related plate by grandad rights; ie mod done before SVA rules came in.... might have been done before rules came in, but NOT UK reg'd!

Frame must basically be 'un touched'; engine must be correct for bike and year; steering, brakes and suspension must be correct for bike and year... you can get away with one or two changes, and some things are a grey area; so you could get away with a later disc brake convcersion, but upside down forks wouyld probably be a no-no....

Bodywork; petrol tank, seal, mudguards, exhaust and equipment; pretty much 'free' and up to you.... dont 'count' as far as DVLA are concerned.

BUT you have to get a dating letter...... remember them clubs.... so something they are likely to deem 'Sacrilidge' to a bike, chances are they will tell you to effoff.... even if its all 'sympathetic' to the machine, if there's enough in there they think its 'iffy' they may decline to offer 'providence'.

HOWEVER... the MAIN question is the matter of Historic Vehicle Status 'Road Fund Duty Exemption'...

Main reason they are so intolerent on teh subject is expressely to STOP people trying to evaid paying road tax....

BUT AFAIK you can request an Age Related plate, WITHOUT also requesting HVS.... it is NOT an automatic qualification.

Special case, but take an 1968 Land Rover Series 2... chop the chassis to do a coil spring conversion, in place of the leaf s
prings it left the factory with; demands SVA.... its STILL a 1968 SII LAndy, just not 'original'; they'll agree to let it keep original ident, rather than take a Q-Plate, but what they wont do is allow it to have HVS and avoid tax.... hence you couldn't bit by bit, replace ALL of the old Land Rover until instead of a 1968 'classic' you have a brand New Defender, complete with Ford Transit engine and abs.... wearing 'HVS' zero rated tax disc, or take a 1971 Triumph Tiger, and bit by bit, 'rebuild' it until it becomes a 1998 'Tax Exempt' Speed Four, or something, in a triggers broom manner!

Its not the registration number that bothers them, its you avoiding paying tax....

HVS is there for Histoiric Vehicles, and make it ecconomical to restore them and run them and keep them alive; its NOT there so we can build rip snorting specials, and avoid paying our taxes....

Or you can call in a Q as a vehicle constructed from parts from multiple donors..... EITHER way you need to go through full registration & VOSA inspection process.... last I heard, ABOUT £350... which is a LOT of years tax discs.......
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koolio
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: 07:43 - 31 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
kestrel wrote:
Just had a look on the VJMC site. It looks like you may end up with a Q plate.

https://www.vjmc.com/dating-service.html


I'm not sure why it'd get a Q plate? I've bought a bike from the US manufactured in 1975 that was registered in the UK in 1997 and it was certainly not Q plated.

From what I can tell my only other alternative is to build up the original bike, which would be a bore, so same tank, seat, engine etc. and then swap it over once I got it registered.

Please note the project requires no welding or modification of any parts, everything can bolt over from one bike to the other and they even share the same engine (although slightly different capacities).
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 31 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Q plate is when there is a query on the age. From what has been said so far it sounds like you will have a frame from one year, and probably and engine, forks, etc from other years, so it isn't a bike from any particular year.

All the best

Keith
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 21:13 - 31 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is the frame that dates a bike not the engine so you should be able to get a ticket from the VJMC off the VIN.
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Teflon-Mike
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Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 23:52 - 31 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ariel Badger wrote:
It is the frame that dates a bike not the engine so you should be able to get a ticket from the VJMC off the VIN.

DVLA's 'points' scheme weight different components; frame accounts for MOST points, but rule of thumb is 2/3 of the 'major' components MUST be original or like for like replacements.
Frame ALONE is no garantee of HVS, by weighting it only accounts for about half the points; frame and original engine/gearbox, would probably be enough. If you used a later, engine; you may find you have to start scratching for points with original suspension, steering and brakes, to get past the quibble; unfortunately most bikes have 'unit construction' engine gearboxes sharing common cases; and they carry combined points, where vehicles with seperate engine & box cases, each has its own points, and you can gain a bit more flecibiolity only changine one or other.

Good news is 'Body-Work' & Equipment doesn't carry any points; so you can use whatever tank, seat, mudguards, handlebars you like; you could dress a Velocette LE in Fire-Blade track plastic if you liked, add raask rearsets and clip-ons, and a scorpion exhaust, etc, if you liked, and it wouldn't effect HVS one jot.....

BUT, main thing is what you ambition is; to build a 'classic special' and get age related plate for it, or avoid road tax... they are happy enough for people to build effectively 'replica' Tritons, from all new parts and register them....

What they aren't happy about is letting folk build stuff purely to avoid paying taxes.....
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 31 Aug 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
I guess my club is more sympathetic than others Very Happy
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koolio
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: 16:10 - 01 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Teflon-Mike wrote:


BUT, main thing is what you ambition is; to build a 'classic special' and get age related plate for it, or avoid road tax... they are happy enough for people to build effectively 'replica' Tritons, from all new parts and register them....

What they aren't happy about is letting folk build stuff purely to avoid paying taxes.....


You're right its not purely about taxes but the bike I like and want to update to was made in 1973 upwards and shares pretty much the same engine as its predecessor and simply because its a year out is not historic, its a classic as far as I'm concerned and will be used as such and should really qualify for it.

It is really this, I would like to build a classic special as you put it.

Lets say I take the engine and the frame off an old one with matching numbers for the year etc. etc. but have the rear and front end, tank and seat from the newer model. It will all bolt on and swap over quite easily.

Will that pass? I mean first it would have to pass with the Classic Japanese Club first no?
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 01 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
koolio wrote:

Lets say I take the engine and the frame off an old one with matching numbers for the year etc. etc. but have the rear and front end, tank and seat from the newer model.

Will that pass? I mean first it would have to pass with the Classic Japanese Club first no?


Get enough of the original bike and you will be fine. Once registered there is little to stop you updating it as you want, (although some insurers might decide they want an engineers report to see you haven't done anything too lethal).

To register it you need proof of age. Various clubs can provide that proof of age (and some businesses can provide that service as well), but they will likely want proof that the bike is that age, rather than just the frame with the rest unrelated (especially a major lump like the engine). And they will likely be a bit careful as if the DVLA find they are giving an age to any old bitsa their dating could be unacceptable to the DVLA for any future bikes. So how much of the original bike is required to provide a proof of age will partly come down to how much of a risk they want to take.

There is nothing to stop you having a Q plate if you want to avoid the hassle of proving the bike (with its major components) is a particular age, just then you get hassle finding people who will insure it along with a reduced value, etc.

I would agree that the fixed cut off date for a historic vehicle is silly

All the best

Keith
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