Magistrates Court Procedure

[TheDonUK]

Got my court date for 86 in a 40 tomorrow.

Pleaded not guilty, that brought me an extra few months of riding of which i am grateful for, dispite requests for the video evidence i have received nothing.

I tried to seek out the advice of some motoring lawyers but they always seemed to say the same, maybe we can do something if we take the case on, always felt they were trying to get me to committ to paying something.

I have no bikes anyway now, and have resigned myself to being off the road for 6 months, im thinking i should just change my plea to guilty in court, and accept w/e without the mitigating circumstances etc. I mean i was speeding, i think it was more like 60-70 than 86 and the officers statement is based on him doing 86 to catch up, a 10 year old would be more legible, so i almost expect there to be some discrepency or missing "evidence". But im aware magistrates have no duty to "conduct your case for you".

I have been disqualified once before i know the clerk reads out the statements etc.

At what point will they ask for my plea? Will that be before or after any evidence is presented?

Does the officer in question have to attend? is his barely legible written statement enough to convict? can i have the case postponed due to not being supplied with any evidence to prepare my defence?

Ill probably just plead guilty, take the 6 points, get the totting up ban and be done with it. Just still feels like a bit of a fit up.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[Pete.]

[MaybeGuy]

the longer you're not guilty, the longer you can ride. It's almost like they want you to lie.

Fuckit, you might get away with it. Wait it out. What's the worst that can happen? A ban?
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[fatpies]

Fight it, seriously.... the system depends on such apathy and making you roll over for it to work.

If more people fought it then we wouldn't be in such a mess in the first place with cops and judicial system taking the pish.
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"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"

[Pete.]

[JP7]

It is a bit of a predicament, unfortunately solicitors usually don't do anything to help unless their palm is crossed with silver first.

If you've gone Not Guilty, then the magistrates will decide based on the case that's put to them. Your court date will be for a "trial" of sorts, if you went Not Guilty by post. You should have the option to change your plea before or during the proceedings. The officer may have to attend if his evidence is called into question. Were you asked if you wanted him to attend? It sounds like your case hinges on the level of your speeding, rather than whether or not you were speeding. At the moment your Not Guilty plea tells the magistrates that you believe you weren't speeding.

You'll be aware that if you're found guilty after a Not Guilty plea then your sentence will be substantially harsher than if you go Guilty. If you're saying that you know you were speeding, then you'd be well advised to change your plea, but tell them in mitigation that while you know you were speeding and it was inappropriate, you'd like to assure them that it was not at the level suggested by the officer, and there is no way you would do twice the speed limit. The fact that he had to do 86 to catch you means you were doing less than 86, otherwise he would never have caught you! You'll be going to court for "Excess Speed", rather than a specified speed in mph. But the amount you're above the limit will affect the punishment.

There are other things to consider if you were going to stick Not Guilty. Was the officer single crewed (no corroboration), did his vehicle have a calibrated speedo (if not it's harder to prove your speed or his), does he have video evidence that he showed to you at the scene, did he record your actual speed, and if so, how? I don't know what's in his statement, but those are the sorts of things that need to be in there.

If I were in your situation, I would go Guilty and offer the actual speed variation in mitigation. However, I'd stress that this is my own opinion only. I am not a solicitor and can't offer legal advice, so please don't take it as advice. Only you can decide what you should do.

Whichever way you go, good luck!

[TheDonUK]

Yea as far as i know by pleading not guilty by post i have missed any possiblity of a reduced sentence for a guilty plea.

Worth it for the last 3 months or so of riding...

The issue of mitigation has been mentioned by lawyers. That seems the way forward, etc i accept i was speeding and my actions were inexcusable, but that i was not doing 86 (I have no proof, and im aware it it should be the procesution providing proof, but it seems very much from this side, a little three page statement from the officer and thats all it needs).

Incidentally it was dual crewed (blond female WPC in passenger seat who i suspect he was trying impress by dealing with it how he did), on his statement he says his speedo was calibrates and there is video evidence, no proof of which i have seen...

How does the mitigation work, they ask me to plea in court, i say guilty, then they read out the statements, at what point do i get into mitigation discussions, and with whom? The Clerk? the magistrates in open session, any CPS prosecution that is there?.

Incidentally is it worth mentioning that i no longer own any bikes nor intend to for the immediate future?
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[JP7]

If you plead Guilty, you will receive a lesser sentence than if you are found Guilty. So you'll still get credit for changing your plea.

It sounds like they have enough evidence to get it through, to be honest.

You'll be asked by the magistrates if you want to offer an explanation, give it then. It's worth telling them you've sold your bikes, they'd quite like to hear that the shock of it taught you a lesson and scared you into giving up your bike.

[TheDonUK]

Im in a strange situation now where it seems like getting the totting up ban would be best as i would then get my points wiped clean,

How would i go about mititgating to get the lowest fine possible, thats the prime concern for me now as i am taking myself off the road for 6 months regardless if they do it or not.

I have payslips that show only around 130 per week after tax, i read that the fines are usually 100% of weekly earnings (possibly minus 33% for guilty plea).

Thanks by the way for the advice, legal or not.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[djr]

[TheDonUK]

I already have 6 points, and to be honest when i do get back i would rather pay the extra few hundred quid on the insurance than be on 9 points or basically close to another ban.

Ill happily swim through shit for the next 6 months and come out clean on the otherside, shawshank style.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[Im-a-Ridah]

Out of interest, what kind of 40 zone are we talking about? Was it recently changed down to a lower limit?

[Rogerborg]

Try to get in touch with the CPS goon, either by phone or outside the courtroom. Suggest that you'll cop a guilty plea to anything under 80 (then mitigate the heck out of it, learned your lesson, sold your bikes, ever so sorry) but if they want to go for 86 then you'll be having a postponement until they provide the evidence which you believe to be exculpatory. You may need to explain what exculpatory means, they're not exactly the cream of the crop.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[TheDonUK]

We are talking about a road with three lanes each way, armco on either side, which for some reason is a 40...

Roger seems like sound advice, i will try and talk to the CPS before hand, will anything i say to them be used against me... in a court of law?

I semi expect the video evidence to be exculpatory (googled) but it will show me speeding to some extent, so to be honest i will be bluffing, but its worth a shot.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[Kwaks]

Speed limit:40
Your speed:86 mph
Road type: non motorway
Your income (after tax & NI):130 £/week
Magistrates' Court Penalty Guidelines
Eligible for COFP instead? No: Magistrates' court only
Points: 6
Normal fine range: £98 - £163
Disqualification possible? Consider 7-56 days
Maximum fine: £1000
The speed you gave exceeds the standard penalty guidance. Other charges or more severe penalties are possible.


there you go, no option for fixed penalty existed.

dont see why you think a totting up ban would help you in insurance, as that goes on your licence as a conviction code which must be declared.

stick it on pepipoo for best advice.
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Fallen Angel "Nae sniffing my seat now!!!!! "
www.cliqueycuntsmcc.co.uk
I AM NOT A FAST RIDER!!!!!!!!!

[TheDonUK]

What meant to get across that increased insurance premiums as a result of a ban but with my slate wiped clean is preferable to being one minor infraction away from a ban in the future...

Im mentally prepared for a ban and my bike is been nicked...

Roll on next summer.

I will update with the result tomorrow evening.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[serlant]

Good luck.
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04 CBR1000RR, 1995 Husqvarna TE410, 1998 VTR1000(Sold), 1990 XJ600(sold), 1996 KH125(dead and sold)

[Shaft]

Am I being a bit thick and haven't read something properly?

Are you being charged with doing 86, or is the entire charge based on the police doing 86 to catch you?

I would want proof that you were doing what they say you were, because the only evidence you have at the moment, is the police officer admitting that he was travelling at an excessive speed.

I'm surprised video evidence hasn't been submitted, I thought all traffic cars had recording equipment these days.

Personally, having gone this far, I would tough it out and not admit to anything; I would say that it was possible you may have been exceeding the limit, but not to anything like the extent on the charge sheet and, in the absence of proof, you feel totally justified in continuing to plead not guilty to the charge, as scheduled.
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Things get better with age; I'm close to being magnificent........
20 RE Interceptor, 83 Z1100A3, 83 GS650 Katana
WooHoo, I'm a Man Point Millionaire! https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=234035

[Kwaks]

unless you can get them to sentence based on less than 65mph it will all be the same, assuming the police wanted to stop you before the end of his shift then him traveling at 86 to close the gap is not unfeasible. I would seek the tape and the testimony of BOTH officers.
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Fallen Angel "Nae sniffing my seat now!!!!! "
www.cliqueycuntsmcc.co.uk
I AM NOT A FAST RIDER!!!!!!!!!

[TheDonUK]

So i bottled it a bit, pleaded guilty went down the route of a newton hearing, I pleaded guilty but disputed the speed, the magistrates left, it was me, the clerk and the prosecutor, we agreed collectively we would call it 60mph instead of 86, he then went and checked with the white cap sitting outside who instantly agreed. Magistrates came back and the result was 5 points, 95 pound fine, 85 pound costs and 15 pound victim surcharge, which leaves me with 8 points and 195 pounds worth of fines.

In retrospect i should have stuck to my guns as the prosecution/police caved so easily to the suggestion that the 86 mph was merely a calibrates reading of his own speed and had nothing to do with my speed. I stupidly voulenteered that i was probably doing about 60.

So i basically talked myself out of 1 point...

If i had a lawyer i would have got off, if i had been willing to stick it out not guilty and go the whole way i would have got off, and more importantly if i had gone in more prepared and realised that in my case the threshhold seemed to be 55mph, if i had claimed 55mph i might even have got 3-4 points.

So a learning experience which has left me confidant for future court cases, a bit out of pocket and annoyingly not banned, as now my R1 has been stolen and i could be riding it now....

As a side note it was worth the money to watch that traffic cop that did me squirm in the waiting area, he could not look me in the eye, and i just sat there for the hour and a half boring my eyes into the side of his head, so much so that he had to move about 3 times, facial twitches the lot. Was actually quite cathartic. Ie you had no real proof you could have given me 3 points by the side of the road, which i would have accepted, but now we are both here wasting our day.

I later learned he had been there from 9:30 AM, the case was not heard untill 3pm stupid idiot, was worth pleading not guilty to mess him around. I never did see the video...
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[G]

Too late unfortunately, but I think given what you've said, I'd have found a decent legal bod and fought it.

The fact they presented the speed needed to catch up shows he obviously had no idea generally.
For a start, we can presume you must have been going slower than that speed at least - otherwise he wouldn't have caught up!

[Gazdaman]

There are solicitors at the court, go along early and speak to them. They can speak on your behalf, and they know the procedure better.

Clearly the speed they had to do to catch you is greater than the speed you were doing.

Speak to a solicitor, it's usually free and you'd be fairly stupid not to.

EDIT: I actually read the post, I think you did well. It's a decent result all round. I would have thought 86mph in a 40 would have been a ban too. You'd have been very lucky to get 6 points for that.

Gaz

[Rogerborg]

Ah well, it could have been worse. A lot of people would just have rolled over to the 86, and you did fight the good fight just by taking it to court.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Pete.]

Mate you have no idea what they would have given you for the 86 if you had just plead guilty. Might have been a whopping fine or a years ban.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good