Some musings on the "compensation culture"

[stinkwheel]

It was reading TCs latest thread that got me thinking. Why did the judges summing up not finish with "And for lying under oath, I sentence claimant C to two months detention for perjury."

Quite a few accident claims land up going to court to apportion blame, often over huge sums of money.

So both sides present their claims and the judge decides who was right.

Now fair enough if it's a point of law that needs to be adjudicated upon but what about the cases where there are two conflicting stories as to what happened?

In that case, one of the people has stood there in the court room and lied under oath in order to fraudulently obtain money from the other persons insurer. Not only that, but they will often be covered by a legal insurance policy meaning that it doesn't actually cost THEM to have done this. It's you and me who pick up the bill on our insurance premiums.

If you've been found to have been lying in court about the events leading up to an accident in order to make an unjustified claim against a third party, why doesn't it trigger a perjury and/or fraud trial?

Like in the case TC mentioned, the driver who caused the accident lied about another driver accelerating while they were overtaking. What did they loose by doing this? I suspect their no-claims bonus and possibly a three figure fine for driving without due care. Yet they would have stood to gain ££££?

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a few spurious whiplash/fender bender claims very publically resulted in the claimant being jailed for a few months rather than just being found against and sent on their merry way. Or maybe they are and we just don't hear about it?
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[yambabe]

Because the case was heard in a civil court and perjury is a criminal offence? So the judge hearing the case would have no remit to pass sentence.

All it would take however would be the other party, the police or even the cps to decide it was worth pursuing I think. They sent Jeffrey Archer down for it after all.......

It's a good point. A few test cases might put some of the fabricators of fairy stories in insurance cases off. They could also I believe be done for contempt as well as or instead of perjury.
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Sod falling in love, I wanna fall in chocolate.

[Quornholio]

[parkmoy]

People often have different versions of the same event. It doesn't necessarily mean that one is lying. Observation and recollection can vary enormously between witnesses and a civil court has to decide who is right on the balance of probabilities.

That's not to say that deliberate lying doesn't take place as well, but it could be time consuming and expensive to prove.

[stinkwheel]

There are differences in recollection and outright lies though.

I've known people have cases in which the location of the accident or the person who was driving is in dispute.

In one case a friend had an accident where someone pulled into the side of his car while he was going round a roundabout. The other party claimed he'd pulled out of a junction in front of him some distance up the road so the damage to the cars matched it being his fault.

Now they dropped that one when he threatened to actually take it to court but there must be a fair few people who chance their hand with similar stories.

Something like the above is a deliberate attempt to committ fraud in my oppinion. It also shows why it is a good idea to either get the police there or at a minimum photos of the scene and people involved so you can put the person at the location.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Rogerborg]

Perjury applies to any court - even the clowns at PATAS claim that it applies there - but it's prosecuted as a separate offence.

The standard of proof is extremely high, since the purpose of a court is to choose between two stories that are almost axiomatically going to be contradictory.

If that wasn't the case, then essentially the loser in any case could be convicted of perjury. As it is, simply being wrong isn't grounds for a perjury conviction.

If there's an attempt to hide or tamper with evidence or an egregious change in the story, then here may be grounds for perverting the course of justice, which is a Big Boy offence. If you don't report it to plod, it won't get investigated though.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[sickpup]

[G]

I've thought about this before; but it brings about some very dangerous possibilities.

Now not only do you not get your compensation when someone 'finds' some witnesses, but you find you're actually in prison because someone else crashed in to you and didn't want to lose no claims.

[stinkwheel]

[Cheeseybeaner]

I think the fact that insurers won't investigate and simply want the easiest most cost-effective way out of a claim doesn't help.
I've been in accidents where the other driver has not only lied but drew up witness statements from passengers who didn't even exist in the past alongside with imaginary roadside witnesses!
Obviously he got the money he wanted and I had to fight harder to get mine afterwards...

[Rogerborg]

I agree with mr wheel in principle, but as G and Cheeseybeaner noted, if you up the stakes than there's more incentive for Paddy Professional-Scammer to rock up with a bunch of his cousins who'll swear blind that you drove into his Ferrari then ate his kitten.

Under our adversarial system, a court can only consider the evidence in front of it, which does rather play into the hands of the truly deceitful. The State just doesn't have the resources to investigate all criminal defendants or civil parties for perjury or perverting the course of justice, and if it's not a blanket investigation, you've only really got grounds for investigating losing parties. If you don't find evidence that they lied, then that throws the verdict into doubt and it all gets a bit messy.

"High profile prosecutions" makes my skin crawl. Justice shouldn't be dependent on whether the public is paying attention.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[T.C]

It is a fair point the OP raises, and in fairness it is something that is now starting to be be addressed.

Firstly, as mentioned, the offence of perjury applies to any court where evidence is being given.

However in a civil court, the Judge can only pass judgement on the evidence provided, and in cases where he believes that the evidence has been tampered with or where he/she believes the evidence given is untruthful, then the judgement will reflect that.

Remember the trial judge will have been provided with the "Bundle" of case papers many weeks before the trial and will be familiar with all the evidence, and so any deviation from the evidence that has already been provided will be picked up on.

In cases where it is believed that perjury has been committed, then the Judge does have the option to refer the matter to a criminal court (purely from the perjury perspective) but!!!!! In many cases the Judge takes the stance that the person or persons who have lied are going to have judgement against them and so they have to a degree already been punished for their blatant lying.

In cases where a pecuniarary advantage has been gained as a result of lying, there have been some quite recent high profile cases at the RCJ where ther offenders (including the witnesses who lied to help the person making the false claim) have been jailed, and some cases where the insurers have tried to claim back the award where a much larger amount than would normally be awarded has been given.

At the moment the system is not perfect, but the system is trying to address these issues and as more prosecutions occur, then hopefully the number of fraudulent claims will slowly diminish, but the biggest problem at the moment are the claims management firms who are encouraging people to make ficticious claims and often claims for ficticious people.

The sooner we are shot of these claims management pasasites (and the law firms who support them) the better, although I suspect that we will start to see a bigger problem arise once those firms under the ABS (alternative business solutions) which came in on the 6th of October, and in affect deregulates the legal professions and allows non qualified people to set up a law practice, start to get into their stride.
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It is better to arrive 30 seconds late in this world, than 30 years early in the next

[fatpies]

Fine, two HD Go Pro cameras facing backwards AND forwards on all vehicles.

The technology is getting cheap enough so that most people can have them. The old version can be had for £93. The newer version a bit more.

It should reduce the he said she said a bit more. And you have rock solid concrete evidence (until somebody starts to edit the videos and pictures like parking enforcers did once).

Thus for the cops open and shut case in terms of purjury.

Perhaps though a change in the sentence from prison to an uber fine, as it costs $$$$$ to stick people in prison.
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"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"

[fatpies]

In fact I remember off a car forum ages ago. It advised people to keep a disposible camera in their glove box at all times.

If something happened then they should take lots of pictures to prove who was there and who wasn't and it would act as strong evidence to one party or another.

It was even in the local papers I think. Where a woman lied about an insurance claim when it was HER fault. Her son happened to take a number of photographs on his film camera. And boom she lost the case.
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"It's easy to attack and destroy an act of creation. It's a lot more difficult to perform one"

[Alex_B]

Yea. It's a fukin nightmare out there at times.

I was riding out today and I approached a right hand bend (30 at most) and this fukin lunatic in a 4x4 comes flying round a very, very, *VERY* tight bend
(it's weird, the actual pavement juts out at a weird angle on his side)

and I thought to myself that one slight mistake from him and I'm, at the very least, badly hurt. More likely fukin dead tbh!!

If I manage to survive I can't get pictures as I'm totaled but this fukker is doing 50 in a 30, round a VERY tight corner but hes going to scream that it's my fault.

I'm getting a *Movie* camera after Christmas, it's the only way to be sure, right? or at least, the wife will be looked after
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My Lane Position is always AWESOME!!

[Vincent]

IMO, lawyers, judges, clerks etc make a lot more out of the "compensation culture" than any scammer claiming for whiplash etc. From what I can make out, those shiney arsed fu**ers screw the system over 500 knicker an hour. It's in their own interest to keep things ticking along smoothly. Besides, purgery is an imprisonable offence and there's no room.
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Space Is Deep

[T.C]

[Vincent]

[T.C]

[Quornholio]

[Villers]

[AndyJ]

[G]

[Rogerborg]

I'm of the opinion that polygraph evidence isn't admissible in any UK court mostly because it would put a lot of judges and lawyers out of work.

The idea that taking an oath somehow makes truth come out of a liar's mouth is strictly medieval. We might as well have trial by combat.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[fatpies]