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| Chuck125 |
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 Chuck125 L Plate Warrior
Joined: 06 Jul 2011 Karma :  
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 Posted: 02:44 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: First Big Bike, is a 1000cc sports tourer a bad idea? |
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I will be getting a first big bike in the next few months, having passed my DAS.
I am 6 foot 4 and 16 stones, aged 22. I would like my bike to be a sports tourer, and essentially could use some advice on whether a 800-1000 cc bike will be too much for me to handle.
I want a bike which suits my frame, keeps a more sporty look, but can handle longer motorway trips, and possibly trips into Europe (Italy), with paniers and a box.
I was considering some of the following:
Triumph ST 1050
Ducati ST2 950
Honda VFR 800/750
Pan European 1100
Anyone have any other suggestions?
That these bikes have similar horsepower, weigh more and handle less keenly than a 600 supersport, are they 'too much'? They are actually less expensive to insure that a CBR600F interestingly, which I am also considering, but isn't really a tourer, or a luggage carrying bike.
Basically, am I likely to become a statistic on these sorts of bikes as they are larger displacement? Feel free to tell me not to be so stupid...
This thread on why not to get a supersport 600 may be of interest as well;
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=212850 |
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| Frost |
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 Frost World Chat Champion

Joined: 26 May 2004 Karma :  
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| P.addy |
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 P.addy Red Rocket
Joined: 14 Feb 2008 Karma :  
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 Posted: 10:30 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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Never "too much"
I would say you cant really go wrong with a nice low-ish miles VFR800. Would assume given their previous praise they are fantastic tourers and cope well loaded up.
Probably not the style you want, as its not sporty as such, but I recently had a test ride on a Triumph Tiger 1050, 2009 model... Must say I really enjoyed it...and I'm on a sports bike and wank over the plastic covered bikes  |
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| Okeydokey |
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 Okeydokey Scooby Slapper

Joined: 13 Sep 2011 Karma :     
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 Posted: 10:33 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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I've seen quite few old BMW's around that might suit the bill for a larger starter bike, that said the idea of all that plastic shattering would put me off!
From what I can tell falling off is a 'when' question not an 'if', so getting something naked, or that can be nakedified easily might be an idea that will keep you on the road longer? It also seems to me that this is how most street fighters get started as projects  ____________________ Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruitsalad!
YB100 v. Ford Sierra (1982 I came 2nd place) Honda H100S (Currently 0 - 0) CX500 Cafe project (me 1 - wife 0.... maybe!) |
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| garth |
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 garth World Chat Champion
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Karma :    
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| stevo as b4 |
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 stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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| Scooty |
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 Scooty Spanner Monkey

Joined: 30 Apr 2010 Karma :     
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 Posted: 14:39 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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My first big bike was a VFR800 - I'm 6' 4" too, so was looking for something that would fit comfortably. Was a little worrying going out on it for the first time, but your speed is controlled entirely by your right hand!
Sit on the bikes you are interested in, see which is the most comfy.  ____________________ Current Bike: 2018 Honda CRF250L
Ex-Bikes: 2002 Honda CG125, 1998 Honda VFR800, 2011 Honda CBR600F, 2013 Triumph Sprint GT SE, 2015 Kawasaki ZX10R |
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| Knot600RR |
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 Knot600RR Scooby Slapper
Joined: 25 Aug 2011 Karma :     
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| JoeDougieDoug... |
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 JoeDougieDoug... World Chat Champion

Joined: 25 Oct 2011 Karma :  
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| Kickstart |
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 Kickstart The Oracle

Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :     
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| Teflon-Mike |
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 Teflon-Mike tl;dr

Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :    
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 Posted: 17:37 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | First Big Bike, is a 1000cc sports tourer a bad idea? |
Not completely.
ST11 Pan, for example is a big softie, with less ultimate power than many 600's, that pulls like a tractor and doesn't encourage you to ride like a loon.
VFR, is one of the most rounded all-rounders of modern times, and again, 100 euro freindly ponies, its not highly tuned, the extra cubes bulking up the mid range for nice flexible power delivery, that doesn't encourage you to rag it every where.
It IS a very fast motorcycle however, and the smooth power delivery, and water cooling and effective fairings mean you get little feed-back of how quick you are really going apart from the dials in the dash.
These have the ingredients to be reletively 'newbie-freindly', BUT you do need to apply self control, and be a bit more mindful that these bikes are very very capable and dont give you the clues that you might be doing something a bit 'daft', that a less sophisticated, unfaired bike will.
Divvy 9, would do the job nicely. Half faired and air cooled, its lumbering four is still very grunty, and smooth, but noise and overall composure give you more sensation and feed-back of whats going on, while slightly less sophisticated handling wise, gives plenty of warning you are perhaps trying a bit hard!
This kind of bike, can be a lot easier to ride than a tiddler, with a surfiet of power and low down 'grunt', and plenty of mass to damp clumsy gear-changes and less than precice control inputs. Lots of mass to balence and manage too, if you are less confident or more clumsy; so they can flatter you if you haven't quite got the 'finesse' of more experience, and give you a bit more work to do if you haven't learned how to make a bikes weight work for you rather than against.
Personal inclination, is that a 'big softie' is not such a bad place to put a newbie, and its certainly better than many middleweight plastic-fantastics. BUT you have to be sure you are getting a big softie, and not a brute!
Pan is a Softie. Divvy 9 is a softy. VFR is a 'Softened' and 'bigger' middleweight fantastic.
Of what you have stuck up; Pan or VFR are 'ish'.. I'd rate Divvy 9 above them.
BUT, as first big-bike; my reccomend is for an unfaired, twin. Two cyclinders get a bit lumpy and asthmatic when revved, letting you know you are asking a lot of them. Lack of fairings puts your head in the wind, and your kneck makes a very good wind-speed indicator, and buffeting gives you a good idea of whats going on around you. General composure and sophistication of unfaired twins, also means that you can be a bit silly with them, and long before they punish you for it, they grumble and complain and give feed-back to let you know it.
Its all about feed-back, and actually having a more compromised bike that gives you loads of it, and before its a 'red message' so you can, in relative safety, learn to interpret it, and start developing as a rider.
Jump on too good a bike straight out, you may never expereinece any feed-back, and get dependent on the bikes capabilities not your own.... though it Is double edged.... you can learn to recognise feed-back, and interpret it, but become so accustomed to it, you dont respond to it... it becomes 'normal', so when you get it on something more sophisticated you dont actually recognise it as so 'important'... but thats learning the difference between knowledge and wisdom! & wisdom without knowledge is as useless as knowledge without wisdom...
So, swings and roundabouts, and not a complete non-starter, BUT.... demands some thought.
And yes, those insurance quotes can be telling, and what does come in cheaper is often 'softer' and more sensible; bit not always; crash risk is only one factor in insurance premium calculations.
Check out the Divvy 9..... ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Chuck125 |
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 Chuck125 L Plate Warrior
Joined: 06 Jul 2011 Karma :  
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 Posted: 18:56 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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Thank you for such a useful response everyone.
| Knot600RR wrote: | No issue about buying a large capacity bike as a first machine, although your insurance company may disagree. |
I have checked the insurance on the models I have listed, and they are alright, all cheap enough to be considered.
| Kickstart wrote: |
How much experience have you had on bikes? 3 days wobbling round doing DAS or a couple of years on 125s and 250s?
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Not massively experienced, but I began working on 50cc scooters, delivering pizza (glamorous I know!), now working on a 125 scooter now, been doing it for 6 months.
Commuting on a Varadero 125, which I have had for two full months.
I won't be getting this bike for 3 months or more, so there would be additional experience until then.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: |
Personal inclination, is that a 'big softie' is not such a bad place to put a newbie, and its certainly better than many middleweight plastic-fantastics. BUT you have to be sure you are getting a big softie, and not a brute!
Pan is a Softie. Divvy 9 is a softy. VFR is a 'Softened' and 'bigger' middleweight fantastic.
Of what you have stuck up; Pan or VFR are 'ish'.. I'd rate Divvy 9 above them.
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So you would consider the Triumph and the Ducati to be poor choices? Too powerful?
I must say I'm attracted to the looks and the size of the frame of them both.
Thanks for suggesting the Diversion. They are cheap as chips to insure, and would also be a strong option. |
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| Kickstart |
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 Kickstart The Oracle

Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :     
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 Posted: 19:09 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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Hi
At least you will have 6 months experience with a geared bike.
That leaves coping with the weight and the power.
Weight is down to experience, and to be honest even a porky 125 will help a lot there (ie, its not the actual weight that is the problem, it is how much more effect it has when the bike is leaning over a bit).
Power is different. Some larger bikes can go very quickly with no effort at all (ie, many years ago I took a Triumph Thophy 1200 for a test ride - accelerating past 110mph it felt like my FZ750 at 70mph), others might need more effort. More touring orientated bikes tend to be those where performance is more effortless (even if compared to a sportier bike the ultimate performance is rather less). Arriving at a corner at 100mph when you think you are doing 50 and need to slow to 30 to get round it is not a healthy place to be.
The corollary to that is that more sedate bike tend not to encourage you to thrash them ; they don't behave like a devil on your shoulder saying "faster, faster, go on, is that all you can manage".
All the best
Keith ____________________ Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing |
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| Chuck125 |
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 Chuck125 L Plate Warrior
Joined: 06 Jul 2011 Karma :  
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| Kickstart |
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 Kickstart The Oracle

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| Teflon-Mike |
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 Teflon-Mike tl;dr

Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :    
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 Posted: 21:25 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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| Chuck125 wrote: | So you would consider the Triumph and the Ducati to be poor choices? Too powerful? |
I dont know much about the Trumpet; I dont know enough to rate it, really. But by Trumpet standards, it will be somewhere between VFR800 & Pan.
The Ducati? I chose to ignore it's reference! A Ducati with paniers Its as much of an anathma as a BMW 'Sports-Bike' And probably even more optimistic.
I used to ride a Ducati for a while. It was very very pretty; but I considered it a good day, if I made it to the local ride-out meet on a Sunday afternoon on Stratford's Bancroft, where the Brumy boys would gather, without developing a misfire, blowing a bulb, or developing a new and irksome electrical fault.
And I lived IN Stratford! And its NOT a big town!
| Chuck125 wrote: | My Varadero weighs in at 152 kg, which is pretty hefty for a 125. |
Its probably more 'rolling'. Book weight of the CB125 Super-Dream is 125Kg, we stuck Snowie's on Bath-Room scales the other day; quite surprised, tipped them at 140Kg dead, 'ready to ride', with a rack, engine bars, different headlamp; bar guards, and a full tank of fuel!
Quoted weight's are often 'Dry-Weight' how much they weigh in a packing crate with no oil in the sump, water in the radiator, fuel in the tank or fluid in the brakes.
As Keith says, its not the weight that matters; but the balence point. My DT is a flyweight 95Kg, but tip it over you get to a point of no return, and its still a heft to lift off the floor.
Sack of spuds at my local farm come in 35Kg sacks. Thats no co-incidence, its the size that over centuries has proved about the biggest 'comfortable' lifting weight.
So ANYTHING over that is going to be a struggle to dead-lift off the floor; and what makes any of them 'manageable' is the fact that we aren't lifting, but balencing.
| Chuck125 wrote: | The weights of the other bikes are around 210/220kg, while the Diversion is 240kg.
Still a difference, especially with paniers etc, but presumable managable? |
Which is my earlier comment; its ore mass to manage, and that can make it harder work, but its all about getting to grips with using the weight to help you, rather than fighting it.
I'm no eight stone wimp, at 90Kg, but in a battle of bulk, even flyweight DT has the advantage on me! My VF1000 ready to ride was around 275Kg, three times my weight; trying to wrestle that kind of odds I soon learned was rather futile, you HAVE to use 'judo' and find the tipping points and make the bikes weight work for you to make it do what you want, rather than trying to fight it with brute force.
So, having probably got that kind of idea from your Vera, ought not take much to start putting the same principles to work on a Divvy or Pan or whatever... you just have more mass moving about under your command!
And weight, as mentioned has its advantages; it damps clumsy input, and it offers stability.
Its manageable. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Howling TerrorOutOfOffice |
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 Howling TerrorOutOfOffice Super Spammer

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Karma :    
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 Posted: 23:58 - 07 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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My ST2 fully laden is 66 stones (420kg). It takes time to 'acclimatise' yourself to the weight, especially when moving it about on foot or slow tight turns. I bet the ST2 isn't the heaviest bike in your list. Of course you'll remember and know how to add extra preload or you might find it running wide in corners or the forks bottoming out when braking hard. Speaking of brakes, and i can only vouch for the Duc..they're rather good and required learning.
Your throttle control will be tested. The 944 ST2 is probably the least powerful bike in your list. 83bhp at the crank and 63 pound of torque. That's still enough to spin the rear wheel in the wet in 3rd gear. The time spent on my 250 taught me a few things about that, and many many other aspects.
You're a tall bloke..are you flexible? The ST2 ergonomically is slightly more Sports than Tour. So to ride it properly you assume a semi crouch position. I'm fine with it and have ridden from dawn to dusk no problems.
Last thing is be honest with yourself. Are your skills up to it.
You want it to be an enjoyable learning experience, not having a butt clencher every other day. ____________________ Diabolical homemade music Bandcamp and Soundcloud
Singer songwriter, Artist and allround good bloke Listen to Andrew Susan Johnston here
The Harry Turner Project |
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| Chuck125 |
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 Chuck125 L Plate Warrior
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| Chuck125 |
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 Chuck125 L Plate Warrior
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| Howling TerrorOutOfOffice |
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 Howling TerrorOutOfOffice Super Spammer

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| Teflon-Mike |
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 Teflon-Mike tl;dr

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| Benson_JV |
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 Benson_JV World Chat Champion
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| garth |
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 garth World Chat Champion
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| Cadbury |
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 Cadbury Crazy Courier

Joined: 05 Oct 2011 Karma :  
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 Posted: 14:24 - 08 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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| garth wrote: | What about something like a 600 Fazer? |
TL:DR version = it's good
Based on the OP's requirements, here's my 2 pence on the Fazer. I'm 6'1, and just under 15 stone. My 98 600 Fazer is my first big bike after my DAS. The riding position fits me perfectly, nice upright-ish position for good visibility, but can tuck in behind the screen without feeling like i'm bent double. It eats up the miles on my commute (50 a day) most of it on the motorway, doing this it gets around 55mpg, i only use a soft tailpack, so cant comment on other luggage, but the rear is pretty spacious so plenty of options would fit, there is also a surprising amount of room under the seat (currently a D.lock, Abus chain+disk lock, a set of waterproofs, multitool, and spare pair of gloves with space to spare!)
Mine is the first edition fazer, so does look a little "chunky" from some angles, newer models definitely got sportier looking, mine has pretty high mileage - currently 37k ish, but the engine feels as smooth as the 2 year old xj6 i did my DAS on. Cruises hapilly at 70+ with enough roll on speed to get you out of trouble if you need it for overtakes etc.
As a distance machine - i live in Glasgow, but am originally from the midlands. Its about 300 miles each way to visit family, usually just a single stop about half way down as the bike starts to run low on go-go juice. If i was to run it right down, i think i get just under 200 miles to a full tank, probably more if i was taking things steady. I always wuss out and find the nearest petrol station way before the bike runs dry though!
Power delivery is really good, nice and smooth at the lower revs for general riding, nothing scary, and very confidence inspiring for a relative novice like me. Once you get it spinning past about 6000rpm, it gets a noticeable change, and really starts to shift. Taking you well into 3 figure speeds very quickly if you were that way inclined.
Creature comforts are slim on the ground though. You get a single trip meter, and a fuel gauge. Thats it.
The brakes are good, i have yet to use them in anger, but under general riding they have proved perfectly adequate. The standard headlights are rubbish! I changed the bulbs to extra bright style ones which has helped a lot.
If you plan on doing your own servicing, be aware that if, like mine, you have after market downpipes, you might have to take the exhaust system off to get the oil filter off. Nothing majorly difficult, but it was a pain in the butt at the time
Overall i am pretty happy with it. Sure there are faster, better handling, more comfortable, better weather protected options out there, but for what i currently need, she suits me to a T.
Sorry for the long post, just thought i'd share my opinions on another option for you to think about.
Adam |
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| chris-red |
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 chris-red Have you considered a TDM?

Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :   
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 14 years, 317 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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