Good or Evil ABS

[Walloper]

Is anti-lock braking a good/useful thing to have on a motorcycle?
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair

[mattress]

Greatest invention in mankind's history. Just today, thousands of people's lives were probably saves by its intervention. It probably saved mine several times on the ride I went out on earlier today.

Hopefully, in time, EU legislation will enforce its application to all vehicles and crush all those without it! Let us pray that the resistance, including StuckUp, will be cable tied to their bikes prior to crushing.






Contrary to the opinion of a few dicks, I was joking

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

[mattress]

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

[mattress]

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

[mattress]

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

[Skudd]

During the ice and snow my ABS helped a few times.
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Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

[robbieguy2003]

I think ABS is fine if it's intended as a 'last resort' safety measure. In all honesty I think it's main purpose on a bike is to prevent panic braking and locking the wheels, especially the front wheel.

If people routinely (i'm NOT pointing at you mattress, just in general) ride beyond their available grip and let ABS save them then they'll run out of luck one day.

I think bikers cannot, and should not have the same mentality of car drivers applied to them. They are more dangerous and adding rider aids whilst good should never replace good riding skills and the 'feel' for throttle, brakes and grip. These controls are finnesse and takes years of work to get right. It's like saying the army guys dont have to try as hard because they've got better armour, if they fuck up they're still dead.

Most bikes are performance vehicles and despite what Top Gear (mostly in jest) says, bikes are the king of the road when it comes to performance, and that becomes obvious when you apply the real world condition of traffic.

Adding safety options is fine, but my biggest fear for something like ABS is when the poor git riding it believes that the ABS will get them out of most situations, that mentality is wrong, ride like you haven't got ABS, learn the vehicles limits, maybe use the ABS to learn those limits in a safer way, but in your riding mind assume you dont have it.

I said, as I think a few others on here did that when the BMW S1000RR came out with wheelie sensors, tcs and abs that there will be a few cheap ones coming up because people run out of talent trying to ride them. At the end of the day, put all the electronics on a bike you want but if you panic and target fixate because you've went in far too hot, no system on any bike available today will steer the bike around the corner for you. Likewise on a long countryside bend with a reasonable level of lean and a car emerges from a junction, your abs has a good chance of putting you on your arse when the wheel slips out too much, today only skill and practice along with a little luck will get you out of those ones.

The technology is good and I like the fact that it's getting put onto machines but it's barely out of shorts yet, it's still young and has a hell of a alot of evolution to do. I look forward to seeing what it can do in 10-20 years and I'm quite happy that the early adopters are putting their hand in the pocket to help pay for the R&D of the future.
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Current Bikes: Honda CBR 600RR - '07, Suzuki GSX1250 FA ST '11
Old Bikes: Suzuki Intruder 125 LC - '2001, Honda CBR 600F - '92, Honda CBR 600RR - '03

[mattress]

Good, intelligent post there Robbie

Don't worry, I'm not as sensitive as may have been suggested!

[Howling TerrorOutOfOffice]

I like it. Not used it or likely to in the near future. Same goes for traction control.
I'm aware that it takes a fair modicum of feel/skill to operate non ABS brakes to their maximum potential and moreso should you need to do this over surfaces offering different levels of grip. I'm quite happy to learn this skill but there are times when being able to haul on the brakes without the slight delay it takes my brain to calculate road surface and the other things i'm mostly unaware of.
Classic example would be a kitten running out onto a wet road..oncoming traffic. Wouldn't I be able to stop the ABS bike sooner? Let the ABS worry about manholes etc.
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Diabolical homemade music Bandcamp and Soundcloud
Singer songwriter, Artist and allround good bloke Listen to Andrew Susan Johnston here
The Harry Turner Project

[robbieguy2003]

[Paulington]

ABS can be a good feature. It's fantastic for people who just drive around from day to day and are 'basic' drivers, when they come to a situation where they have to brake fast, they are almost guaranteed to SLAM on their brakes and without ABS would probably lock them up, but ABS helps them which is what it is good for.

However, I refuse to buy anything with ABS in which the ABS cannot be turnt off as it can also hinder you greatly. For example in adverse road conditions, the worst being on a gritted road where it is icy/snowy, if you have ABS on your car in these conditions then any time you try to break, the ABS throws up a shitstorm meaning you just cruise onward with no braking going on whereas without ABS, you can brake MUCH more efficiently and therefore stop sooner.

Also, on a track, I much prefer to not use ABS as on a track I am at the limit of braking virtually every braking zone and I find it prevents me from predicting *exactly* what the vehicle will do under braking, so I'd prefer it just not to be there.

TL;DR: It can be a good feature, however it has it's place and anyone who thinks (Like the dipshit Honda dealer I had to deal with) that it is the be-all and end-all and should never be removed from vehicles because it is an amazing feature that will protect you all the time really need to clue themselves up.
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"Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul."
Current Vehicles: '89 Kawasaki KDX200, '99 Yamaha XV535, '00 Honda ST1100 Pan-European, '08 Suzuki GSX-R1000, '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GS4 2.0 TDCi, '15 BMW 1 Series 116d Sport Turbo.
CBT: 27/08/08. Theory: 04/09/09. Module 1: 16/09/09. Module 2: 01/10/09.

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

[mattress]

Like I have said before, to be fair my biking experience is pretty limited. I came into it fairly late, did a (fairly shit) intensive, unrestricted course, got my licence in a few days and bought a fairly large bike from the off.

My instructor, while being a complete twat, did offer some advice on what bike to buy. He had a wealth of biking experience and did some circuit racing at a competitive level, so I was keen to listen and gain some valuable nuggets, as he offered fuck all during the previous few days! The bike that he was racing that season was the BMW S1000RR and he was mightily impressed with the TC and ABS it had and suggested to me that I should purchase a bike with the same devices as they may come in useful to a green, useless tosser like me..........or even the Rossis of this world (Sickpup). So, I did!

I don't really drive like an imbecile, apart fom going too slow, and I may never get any real benefit from the TC or ABS but it's mildly comforting to know that it's there.....especially if the situation arises (just once) where I may have to slam on the anchors and due to my inexperience (incompetence) end up in a heap if conventional brakes were fitted!

I do not know if it really works as well that those who will stand to benefit if enforcement comes into place claim it to be, but I really am a sucker for gadgets!

[Paulington]

[Rogerborg]

I'd rather have it than not, but wouldn't pay more than a few tanks of fuel for it.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Noxious89123]

Given the option, I would have it. It would have stopped me throwing my bike down a wet road a couple of years ago; I locked the front to avoid a car pulling onto the road infront of me. Whilst I didn't panic brake and slam them on as hard as possible, I did have to increase braking pressure beyond my comfort zone to avoid rear ending the car, and in the process over did it and locked it up. ABS may have made me run on another couple of inches but it'd have got me out of that situation.

I wouldn't rely on it all the time, but I think it would be reassuring to know that in an emergency you can easily use 100% braking power without the worry of binning it.

So long as you don't become reliant on it, it cannot be a bad thing. Racing and offroading are ofc a different ball game.

Wouldn't be without it in the car, as the brakes have far less feel and you don't have manual control of front / rear braking bias. My old Ka didn't have abs and would lock the rear wheels in the wet with about 60% braking force. Fucking death trap.
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'06 Honda CBR125RW-6 ~ '00 Honda CBR600F-Y ~ '07 Honda CBR600RR-7 ~ Bikeless
'53 Ford Ka 1.3 ~ '03 Vauxhall Astra SRi 1.8 ~ '52 Vauxhall Astra SRi 2.2 ~ '53 Vauxhall Astra GSi

[hornetmike]

I think as time goes on it will get better and better, people's view of it might be based on the first versions of it.

On new BMWs it only really comes on when you have ran out of skill, you can brake quite hard and not notice it/use it.

Isn't there a honda mcn vid that proves it ? and do wsb bikes use it ?
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87 Honda CG 125 - 97 ER5 - SR 50 -81 Z250- 96 CBR 600 F- 94 GPX600R 88- GPX 400R- 87 GS 125 - 2006 Honda CB600F- 2003 ER5 - Honda CBF 1000 2009 - Honda CBR 600 RR 2011
Current BMW R1200GS 2010

[robbieguy2003]

Yep they done a Blade when it got ABS, pretty much everyone stopped quicker with it rather than without it, but it was all, as have
all tests been simple straight line jobbers..

I just wish the marketing depts would be a bit more honest and not stick the 'cures all ills' tags on it.

WSB dont use it, neither does MotoGP.
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Current Bikes: Honda CBR 600RR - '07, Suzuki GSX1250 FA ST '11
Old Bikes: Suzuki Intruder 125 LC - '2001, Honda CBR 600F - '92, Honda CBR 600RR - '03

[stinkwheel]

It almost certainly does allow you to stop more quickly in a panic situation and improves safety in that certain situation.

HOWEVER

Safety is not all that high up the spectrum for deciding how to make a motorcycle. If it was, there would be no such thing. Motorcycles are dangerous and you'd be far safer in a car (with or without ABS).

So I see it as pretty low priority in the grand scheme of things and I know that if I had it, the temptation would be to use it to brake deeper into corners.

It would probably land up making me a more dangerous rider by removing an element of the necessary paranoia that stops one pushing the envelope too far given the unforseeable nature of what's round the next corner.

The ability to stop quickly is not, in my oppinion, all that high on the list of things that will improve safety anyway. The ability to know how long it takes you to stop and to ride witrhin that envelope are far more important. I have bikes with brakes that are so poor you couldn't lock them even if you wanted to, I don't feel any less safe on them.

Look at how far brakes have come. It's not that long ago you could buy an 1100cc motorbike that came with two, single-pot pivoting callipers. The ability to come to a rapid halt is improving dramatically year on year and had been constantly since motorcycles first came into being. Accident rates continue to rise.

In fact, I'd go so far as to guess that there is no empirical data as to wether ABS on a motorcycle makes them any safer. (feel free to present any you think may be relevant). I don't mean on a test track, I mean out on the road.

It would take a well planned study to prove it either way and I've not heard of one. You'd need to compare accident rates for motorcyclists who bought the same model with and without an ABS option and probably divide them into cohorts according to their accident history to avoid selection bias. No good comparing ABS equipped bikes to non-ABS bikes. You'll get all the BMW riders in the former group and all the people who wrap their scooter round a tree in the second. Also people who go for ABS as an optional extra are probably more generally concerned about their safety anyway and will ride accordingly.

Somethging seeming like a good idea is not a basis for good legislation, evidence would be required. The EU politicians periodically get it into their heads that leg shields would also be a good idea and have had to be fought tooth and nail about it.

So. I don't want a bike with ABS, it'll make me ride in a more risky manner and it is added complexity and expense that I could do without. It certainly shouldn't be legislated for.

Other people may prefer it so I see no reason why the status quo of them being an optional extra shouldn't carry on. The market will determine what is required by its customers and some customers just want it cheap and simple. Disc brakes have been around for a very long time and are undeniably more effective than drums yet some bikes are still manufactured with drums.

So I've not voted in the poll. I don't consider it to be either the best or worst, it's just another thing that is out there, just like you get v-twins and inline 4s. What I do get hot under the collar about is eurocrats fucking about with my hobby and MAKING me buy a bike fitted with something else I didn't want at my expense.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Howling TerrorOutOfOffice]

No racing bikes run with ABS that i'm aware of. Ryan Farquhar during one of last years RoadRacing events had to use a stock ZX10R in the senior races. All he changed was the master cyclinder, which I presume made the ABS redundant.
Racers, unlike me, have done 'on the edge' braking thousands of times. They snigger at ABS.
____________________
Diabolical homemade music Bandcamp and Soundcloud
Singer songwriter, Artist and allround good bloke Listen to Andrew Susan Johnston here
The Harry Turner Project

[Walloper]

The ABS debate should not be stretched to cover racing tracks.
EU legislation concerns ABS on bikes used on public roads.
Racing is a different matter.
It does not encourage one to be less aware of when to brake.
ABS bikes give no indication that ABS is active until pushed to a limit that is very dangerously close to disaster. Therefore, unless you are lacking in excitement in other areas, you will not really notice ABS.
If you ride the bike to the limits where ABS is repeatedly triggered you are probably close to an unhappy event.

Even with ABS it does not mean you feel bullet proof or give any more confidence that what you are doing riding a motorbike has it's dangers.

The electronics on the S1000RR are very sophisticated and imperceptible. I have hammered an S1000RR repeatedly and the only noticeable thing is the Traction Control light blinks when the rear steps out when passing traffic. I never see the ABS indicator as it is usually too busy in front of the bike to look at lamps on the dash.
The three modes are noticed but no so much that they reduce performance too much.
Wet roads need more care and the electronics permit you to use the bike to 'limits' without skittering all over the place.
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair