Legal Help needed - Re. bike repairs @ shop

[Ste]

Hi,

As I mentioned in a previous post, I had my TL1000R in at a Suzuki garage to have the gearbox repaired. Now, in brief, the bike was hard to start at the shop (took about 20seconds of trying, and the bike was already warm), and it was also smoking as I left the garage (there was someone in a car behind me who noticed this). When I got it home, I ran it in the garage for a few minutes, and it became smokey in there. I left it for the night, tried to start it the next day, and it wouldn't. I've had to be using a friends bike for the moment.

They picked it up the same day at lunch time from my house, took it into the shop, I spoke to them, was assured someone would look at it that day and would call me that afternoon. I was told the same thing on last Thursday, Friday & Saturday with me calling each day to chase them. They did say on the Wednesday that they would want the workshop foreman to look at it, and he was next in on Monday (today). I spoke to them this morning, they said that it was due to the bike running rich, and I need to agree to let them fix it. They also want me to pay for it. This is the point of dispute. They contacted me whilst the bike was in to ask if I wanted to change the piston rings. I was offered this as a "do you want this done while we're in there, but it doesn't need/have to be done". I didn't get them changed due to the extra cost and the cost of the work was already high.

They asked me when I collected it to sign to say they wern't responsible for any other engine failures for anything other than the work they had done. Now, this is slightly reasonable, but they had obviously dismantled the entire engine to get to the gearbox, so would be responsible for ensuring they assemle it correctly and it works. It was not burning oil when it went into the shop, so I don't expect it to be burning oil when it comes out. They have asked to arrange a meeting during the week between myself, the mechanics and the manager. This is less than convientant, as I work during the day (as does everyone!), and I'm off up North to Cadwell Park next weekend.

I had said I will call them back about this, and will do so this afternoon. I am also going to contact CAB (citizens advice bureau), and Trading Standards. I have sent a copy of thier documents to the legal dept., who are getting back to me about them, but the short answer is they mean nothing.

Any hints or advice or stuff I can quote at them? I'm going to fax the MD or other most senior person I can about this.

Other thing... They say they can't get me a coutesey bike till this Wednesday, which means I'll have been having to use a different borrowed bike for 8 days. It is reasonable to expect them to cover the cost of this "rental", as thier shoddy work caused me to have to be? Also, same with a rental bike for Cadwell Park trackday? I would estimate bike rental at say £50 a day, and £200 for a trackday. Whats the law etc behind this?

Please don't ask me to name the shop, as I won't until this has been resolved.

Thanks

Stephen

[Git]

I can't offer any legal advice i'm affraid, but, if I took one of my bikes in to a shop that had a poorly gearbox and i got it back burning oil,smoking, i would be blasted if i would pay for them to fix their cock up!
Hope all turns out sweet for you, bummer situation

[GFK]

[Crazy Manx Man]

Someone's getting too greedy

Jokes aside, That dealership shags Welsh sheep's arse.

Keep in mind I haven't had to go this far with any dealership.

I wont rent/hire anything without their consent, or else they can simply say they wont cover for the expenses. Usually reinbursement is done on good will for business reasons.

The CAB is the right way to go, also do some of your own research, see if the dealer has pulled a fast one on someone else before, that'll support you further more.

Best of Luck

[MarJay]

I have a feeling that the thing you signed holds the key to this. If you signed it then you should have a copy. Dig it out and have a read. If it does say something like: "The company will not be responsible for any loss incurred as a result of the work carried out" then you are screwed.

You didn't sign it did you?
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Crazy Manx Man]

If you did sign it, Ste.

Then you maybe screwed, look for spelling mistakes and errors on the document(s).

[Ste]

Yup I did. It has not legal meaning anyway, and them giving it to me after the work has been done is invalid & illegal so they might as well just put thier copy in the bin.

[andrew]

Being honest I think your're expecting too much. Get them to fix the bike and leave it at that. You're more likely to get them to fix it if you don't go making any crazy demands for borrowing G's bike.

[Ste]

Why?

They fucked up. They shouldn't fuck up when a customer is paying them lots of money. Normal enough really. If a performance car broke, you got it fixed, then it broke again a customer would be expecting a lot more demanding.

My reckoning is they damaged the piston rings whilst they put it back together and knew that full well when they handed the bike back to me.

[Steve H]

Ste,

There are a couple of ways that you can go about this to be honest.

Legally the trader in question should be completing jobs with 'Reasonable Care and Skill' if they don't then you as the consumer are entitled to redress. Unfortunately (as you've found) problems arise when the trader will not admit liability, this then places the onus on proof that the job has not been done correctly on you.

The way to go about proving it is my obtaining an independant opinion from an 'expert'. there are no hard and fast rules as to what an expert should be but I would advise an AA/RAC bike mechanic (there are some about!) if you're a member or alternatively a mechanic with a good reputation within your local community. This expert opinion needs to be in writing and also needs to address the relevent issues i.e. the work carried out and how it has affected/caused the problems that you are experiencing at this present time. in my experience it can be difficult obtaining this type of opinion as very few mechanic's are prepared to lay their neck on the line and give you a definitive answer as to what has caused the problem. Should you however obtain a favourable repoort there is nothing stopping you taking civil action through a small claims court for the cost or making good the repair and any costs that you have incurred throughout your claim.

Bear in mind that Small Claims courts do not require legal representation so you do not have to go to the expense of hiring a solicitor.

Another option is to put something in writing to them along these lines...

Dear Sir/Madam,

Bike/Registration

As you are aware I have recently been experiencing problems after your Company carried routine maintainance on my Bike Name

Input scenario as you've outlined it

I believe that when you carried the work out you may have caused said problems and I am now seeking to obtain recompense (in the form of a repair or alternatively financial remuneration) for these as I do not believe that you carried out the work with reasonable care and skill as required by statutory civil law.

Should you not contact me within 7 days from the date of this letter I will consider getting the work completed elsewhere and subsequently suing you for the cost of the work and any additional expenses that I incur through the Small Claims Court.

I would much prefer if we could settle this amicably however after taking advice on this matter I believe I am in a strong legal position and am more than prepared to carry out the aforementioned action.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully....

Copy something along these lines to your local Trading Standards Department as (although they cannot take any action in a civil case such as this) they are continually compiling records of Complaints against Traders in their area and can also offer additional advice if required.

Feel free to PM me if you need more info.

SteveH

PS apologies for the extremely boring content of this message
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Mellow Yellow
The BCF Top TEN - 2010, 2009, 2008, The Original.

[andrew]

Well to be fair you don't have a clue what they've broken on the bike otherwise you wouldn't be sending it back to them to be fixed and you haven't got a broken performance car so I don't see your point.

Is the shop a Suzuki specialist?

Why don't you claim for your phone bill as well? You have been paying to ring them haven't you.

[Ste]

Thanks for the reply Steve H. Will see what they say after work, then take it from there.

I have a fairly good idea what they've broken Dru. For it to be burning oil, chances are its the piston rings. Fits with what they asked me etc, and what it's doing. But it's not my job to fix it, I paid them to fix the bike before, not to fix one thing and break another which is what they've done.

My point about cars was, if say your broke a BMW, you'd get a courtesy car whilst it was in, you'd get one whilst they did all work on it. And I could be being a lot more demanding if I choose to.

Yeah it is a Suzuki garage, hence why I'm pissed off. Labour rate was more per hour than some small garage, but they're meant to know their stuff.

I phoned using the phones at work, of course .

[Steve H]

Oops, in addition - sorry!

If you did sign something along the lines of a get out clause for the shop, Trading Standards may be interested as it is an offence to restrict an individuals Statutory Rights under a piece of legislation called the Consumer Transactions Restrictions on Statements Order - see a sign saying 'No refunds' it's a restriction of your rights and a Criminal Offence to display it - might be worth mentioning that to put a little bit of pressure on them to sort you out Ste.
____________________
Mellow Yellow
The BCF Top TEN - 2010, 2009, 2008, The Original.

[Kickstart]

Hi

A few thoughts. I would doubt that the piston rings are the problem, or if they are I doubt they would have known about them. The cost of a new set of rings to them would be nominal when compared to the solicitors bill for sending you a letter saying "get stuffed". Depending on the bikes design oil burning could also come from valve stem oil seals (but they probably have not touched these) or from a weeping head gasket around one of the oil feeds to the head.

Legally I doubt you are entitled to a loan bike, but it would be a good gesture from them.

I suspect that what you are going to land up having to settle for is for them to strip the engine and diagnose the problem, and then for the costs to go from there.

If a ring is snapped then it is their fault, nothing else to be said (assuming they did not tell you that they needed to replace the rings as one was snapped and you refused).

The other thing is that they are claiming the bike is running rich. This could also cause similar smoke to oil consumption. The chances of both suddenly occurring at the same time are too much of a coincidence. However, not sure what they have done to cause this. Does it have a Power Commander? Do these loose their fueling maps if the battery is disconnected for a long time? Even if this is the case I would expect it to run lean then, with the pipes you have fitted.

A loose air temperature or engine temperature sensor could provoke it to run rich, but this would almost certainly show up on the self diagnosis function.

A loose pipe of a mal adjusted throttle position sensor could cause similar problems, and both could easily have been done when reassembling the engine.

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Ste]

Thanks for the replies people.

Just got back from a meeting at the shop with the workshop manager, the mechanic who worked on it, and the member of staff in the shop who I spoke with.

They were friendly enough, and want to get it sorted out as well, if not juse so I don't try and sue them. The manager was assuing me getting legal advice was not needed (I had a nice wodge of paper of printout of stuff from here and other websites ) I just said it was for my own information and records and that'll I'll be putting something in writing to them this evening to outline where we are so far.

They offered to investigate what the problem with the bike is, which could be interesting as the mechanic is adament that it is caused by something like the airbox modifaction or the race cans. I pointed out several times that it wasn't running like this when it came in, and he just kept saying he only removed the engine, stripped it, then put it back in again. He says it's got to be a fueling problem as it is running rich, but he hasn't adjusted anything.

It doesn't have a power commander fitted (Although I've been looking at them ), and they were asking if I can give them all the standard parts so they can try it like that.

It's been left at they're going to look over it tomorrow, see what they can find is wrong with it, then fix it, or speak to me about the cost of parts required. I plan not on paying for anything to be done, and I still have the fact Trading Standards will be very interested in them asking customers to try and sign away customer rights.

I get a bike from them on Wednesday, so I can have some fun with that . Will see what they say tomorrow as to what they think is wrong with it.

[Ste]

Sent this to them...

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

Re: Suzuki TL1000R ? V449 XXX

I am writing to set out the problems experienced at your XYZ branch with regard to this bike. As may have been brought to your attention by your workshop manager (Ian), the bike had its? gearbox repaired by yourselves between the 11 March and the 23 March 2004. Upon collecting the bike from your workshop on 23 March, it was apparent by the amount of exhaust that it was either running very rich or burning oil as I left the car park. It was still exhibiting the same problem when I got home, a journey of some 10 miles. The next morning it wouldn?t start. I spoke to your shop about this on the March 24, and again the next day as I still could not start it. After some insistence on my part the bike was collected by your driver on Thursday 25th March.

Since then, I have been speaking to Ian your workshop manager, Ben in service department, and Julian the mechanic who carried out the work on the bike. They were adamant that the bike has been assembled correctly, and the problem was not related to the work done by them. In my view this is simply not supported by the facts - which are very straightforward - the bike was running perfectly before I dropped it off at your workshop apart from the known problems with the gearbox. Following the repairs done by XYZ I have been unable to start the bike.

I went to the shop today to discuss what would be a suitable course of action. The outcome of the meeting was that the bike will be dismantled and the fault investigated and rectified by your workshop ? although who pays for the repairs was left somewhat uncertain. Given the circumstances I require that the fault is rectified at no cost to myself.

I have been most disappointed with the level of customer service I have received (especially considering the amount that I have paid for the gearbox to be repaired) from just simple things like not being called back despite being promised by your staff that I would, to this fault with my bike. Then there is the enormous inconvenience of me being left without my bike for 8 days, as the earliest chance I can get a courtesy bike from XYZ is 31 March.

Please could I ask you to confirm by fax that BikeShopName will repair the bike with no further cost to myself. Should you wish to discuss the situation I can be contacted during the day on my mobile number as listed above.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,




Ste

[Danny]

Sounds good Ste, nice wording.


yours sincerely

[Ste]

I just had a call from the shop. They say the bike is fixed by them, the throttle position sensors are now set correctly, the injection units are now set correctly, and all vacuum hoses are correctly attached. They said they test rode it for 27 miles and it is now running correctly. He said in thier view it is now ready to be returned to myself.

There are still two issues I believe. They say the camchains are rattling, and will be needing changing soon. Same with the piston rings. Now, these were in very good condition before, having only been done recently. I cannot believe that they need changing so soon, unless they have done something wrong with the bike. Where do I stand on getting this sorted?

I am going to speak to the shop & mechanic who did the fork seals on the bike a week or so before hand, as he should hopefully be able to comment on if they were or were not rattling...

Have not accepted the bike back yet, as I want it to be with them until it is fixed correctly.

[Stew]

[Ste]

You can hear them rattling.

Will be speaking to the bike shop which it was waiting to have the work done at previously to see if they will agree that it did not have a cam chain rattle as it left thier shop. They say someone worked on it for three hours today to fix it, so probably about 30mins.

They have also very kindly reset all the fuel injector mapping back to the standard maps. Despite the fact it had been setup on a dyno for the modifactions. Twats.

Will be hassling them in the morning to have this resolved, and for a bike whilst it is being sorted.

[Mr C]

Is anything happening at Cadwell this weekend then?

I won't be running of course but I may be able to pop in to say hello, subject to completeing my own little rebuild

what day?
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187.3bhp = 201mph

[Ste]

It's actually Monday, but we'll be camping there on Sunday evening.

[Mr C]

ah, ok

maybe another time then


unless you are arriving sunday afternoon


who is going
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187.3bhp = 201mph

[Ste]

Not sure when we're arriving, probably won't be sure until we're about an hour away .

People going...

Me
Bendy
G
Alex
Stew
Mark (MarJay)
Dean (Demonic69)
Nige (mate of Stew's)
R6Stu maybe
Cougar maybe

[Mr C]

hmmm

if the weather's nice I may take the afternoon off work and have a tootle up



look out for me

black and gold zx12r, all black Crowtree one piece with Mr C in black on the hump, black lid with errr black visor
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187.3bhp = 201mph