DCT/Automatic on bikes, the future? Yay or nay?

[JonnyFoxtrot]

So I've been reading a few reviews which I've missed over the past few months and last couple of years about hondas new DCT gearbox on the likes of the VFR and NC700 and while a lot of the reviewers admit that they could appreciate some people will find that it takes a certain something away from the biking experience, nearly all of them agreed that it dramatically increased the usability of the bike. For example, not having to worry about gear changes on cornering, smoother and easier touring capability, leaving an extra bit of the thought process for better concentration etc etc etc.

Being based on modern car DSG, DCT and the likes its fairly advanced technology and pretty much all of them again agreed that at what its aimed to do, it does it very well, especially in sport mode where it was changing gear faster than any human could. Bear in mind that it also features semi automatic gear changes with a paddle shift like system using left hand buttons?

So then, for a wet and miserable Wednesday morning discussion (can you tell I'm bored yet?), what are peoples thoughts on it?

Could it replace normal gear changes for you? Would it spoil the riding experience for you? Do the benefits outweigh the negatives? (of which there seems little other than personal choice). Has anyone tried it, test rode it? If so, what did you think?

BCF! Discuss! (or dont, you know, its up to you I guess.)
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'89 Honda NS125F (SOLD) -> '92 Suzuki GS500E (SOLD) -> '03 Kawasaki ZX6R B1H (SOLD) -> '96 VFR 750 RC36 (SOLD) -> '02 Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird

[robbieguy2003]

I'm fairly sure it'll work it's way in to quite a lot of bikes. Sportsbikes seem like a very obvious choice. People still spend good money on adding quickshifters, which only do part of this job, they're still slower than any DCT box will ever be.

Every Factory GP bike has been running these for a bit now, Honda introduces theirs last year.

So sportsbikes is one obvious segment it'll arrive on. The blade this year had a few changes to add new life to it. Rumour has it the next iteration will have a DCT box and an electronics package along with a beefier motor.

At the other end is the N700 or other commuter models. Again I think it's quite a nice idea and I think it'll catch on.

The biggest issue for me is giving up rider control though, specifically the automatic mode. I think any of these systems need to be electronically linked to the braking system. We know they can change gears very very fast, but they'll be a part of the program thats aimed at fuel economy.

Take for example, you're riding through a town centre at 30mph, and you need to emergency brake (someone walks off a kerb without looking). The gear selection for the brake may be a little wrong, say it's picked 4th, this wont aid machine stability, unless it rapidly drops to say 2nd by knowing whats going on.

As an example, try and do a 30mph abrupt stop on a bike with grippy tyres chugging in 4th, on my RR the back gets upset, skips a bit and the chain seems to bob, it all goes a bit wrong.

Do the same thing in 2nd and nothing happens, it's happy.

Does the fact that the system disengages the clutch earlier make up for this? Does it feather it or just let it go? Wont the rider suffer from a lack of engine braking?

I like the idea, and I think it'll happen, but I think how good it'll be in day to day use might partly depend on some of the questions i've asked above.
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Current Bikes: Honda CBR 600RR - '07, Suzuki GSX1250 FA ST '11
Old Bikes: Suzuki Intruder 125 LC - '2001, Honda CBR 600F - '92, Honda CBR 600RR - '03

[JonnyFoxtrot]

Wow, clearly this is a hot topic

Rob think your spot on about it being an obvious choice for sportbikes, will be interesting to see it on the next blade or as an ABS style option. If its made its way into F1 in car form I can imagine it wont be long till bike racing and street riding sees it coming in as standard as well.

Personally I like the idea. I'm itching to actually test a bike with it on and see what I think and I'd read about rider control at slow speeds (not thought about braking issues though good idea!) and the lack of control where people would normally be making full use of clutch control.

It will be an interesting next couple of years thats for sure!
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'89 Honda NS125F (SOLD) -> '92 Suzuki GS500E (SOLD) -> '03 Kawasaki ZX6R B1H (SOLD) -> '96 VFR 750 RC36 (SOLD) -> '02 Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird

[Blau Zedong]

My main concern is that everyone bitches about saving weight on high end sportsbikes, to the point where even clocks and switchgear are taken into account when getting weight dwon one year to the next. Semi electronic shift is going to add quite a bit of weight to said cutting edge sports bikes, offsetting any advantages it may give.
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18:54:48 Rob Fzs: jews don't give away stuff for free

18:54:59 Rob Fzs: unless its their clothes/ hair/ golden teeth

[G]

Generally engine braking these days is seen as a bit of an 'evil' in sports riding. Various systems to try and lessen it, I believe.

I was thinking one issue would be weight, but with an associated price increase, shouldn't be too bad; I didn't realise that actually it was pretty similar to a bike gearbox and used wet clutches, at least on the more expensive models.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Doppelkupplungsgetriebe-A.svg/800px-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe-A.svg.png

Wonder if it could have some 'packaging advantages' for those wanting to keep a slim twin slim (obviously then laid out differently to the diagram - though don't think it's really a big issue as it is.

Bikes tend to be pretty behind the technology curve, as so far they've been a good chunk faster without the various fancy things cars have thanks to basic power to weight.

Me - I like my manual clutch (wheelies etc) as I do in a rear wheel drive car (drifting), but otherwise happy to do without.

[Teflon-Mike]

I think on average, every 'new' bike I get, seems to actually be 'older' than what I had before, even though it might actually be 'newer'... And as I dont own a bike made this century... I think it is unlikely to be an issue for me for a very long time!

Not one to go for the latest high-tech gadgetry.... I own a mobile phone.... it is FAR from 'smart'..... when I come to look at these kind of bikes, they will probably be twenty years old or more, and I'll be looking at them because of the arthritis in my by then, probably plastic toes!

As such, a bike with an auto-box, that I CAN ride, vs a bike with a manual one I cant? No brainer really!

I am an Auto-Fan in cars though. Have been for years. I learned to Drive on public roads aged 14 in Alberta in a Chrysler 'K'... no idea what that means, but what the driving instructor told me! Small 'Yank-Tank' of 80's vintage.... and apparently quite advanced for a Yank... it was front wheel drive! And an auto.

When I started driving in the UK, it was in 'stick-shift', and at the time with few Auto's in the UK apart from big exec saloons, made sense. And for light and flighty hot-hatches, quite a lot of fun.

By the Milenium, though, with more and more of my driving 'city-crawling' and ferrying a family about, advantages of a manual seemed slight. Sure they may be SLIGHTLY more efficient, hence ecconomical, but grinding slog of city snarl, really not an issue.

And for the 'odd' occasion I could exploit the control of a direct drive manual in some 'spirited' driving, small gain compared to force shifting in a slush-box, no great sacrifice for the advantages.

So, in cars I LIKE auto's, and the modern sequential shift electronic transmissions that can be set to fully-manual button change or fully auto... seem to offer pretty good chunk of the best of both worlds.

I think that they probably ARE the future, TBH.... especially in our modern 'Play-Station' push button society, and for the 'next' generation for riders, brought up on X-Box, it will be as 'natural' for them to select 'manual' or 'auto' from an LCD screen, then let the machine do the shifting, or do it by prodding a button, as it is for an old luddite like me to grab a big lever.

There is a 'worry' that 'de-skilling' driving or riding, and transfering 'control' from the human in command to a pre-programmed black-box, will ultimately 'dumb-down' to a generic level of incompetance, and the black-box making more and more decisions for us, and over-ruling decisions IT doesn't agree with, it can 'deny' the 'enthusiast' a level of control and that driving 'experience' they desire.... but....

Analogy I find is with Cameras. When I was a kid, they were boxes of 'Mystery' that made 'Magic' pictures... OI! Colour HAD been invented, you piss-taking bastards... though does remind me of an anecdote a few yeears ago when I ran a roll of B&W through one of my cameras, and looking at the pics of the 'do' one woman, asked "Who took all the colour out"... told her it was a B&W film, and she wouldn't believe me... in the end I had to tell her I used an REALLY old camera!

Anyway, Grandad would wander around looking for 'JUST' the right angle to take a photo, wave a light meter about, fiddle with filters, look through the 'range-finder' to get the focus distance, fiddle with rings and dials to set the depth of focus and the apature setting and the shutter speed....

And after some length of time in which you could have read a couple of my average length posts..... he'd say 'Say Cheese' and press a button on a cord!

It was a long and tedius and involved process, but, the skill, care and attension required meant he took, few, but consistantly 'good' pictures.....

My DAD had a Konica, 'Instamatic'. An early 'Electronic' camera, that had a CCD sensor in the lense to measure the light level, and automatically set the shutter speed. Took moments to take a 'photo; it was 'almost' point and press.

He took a LOT more 'photo's, though an AWFUL lot of them were the inside of his lense cap, or out of focus or rather dark and blury, becouse the camera couldn't do EVERYTHING for him!

A couple of years later, I was bought an Olympus XA2 for my 10th Birthday. It was an Award winning camera in 1980; it was one of the first truly 'point and press' automatic cameras. Took 'full' 35mm film too, rather than a 110 or 120 'cartridge'. But, electronic light meter, and control, you set one of three icons for the focus distance, a persons head, for close up, a person full length for middle distance, and a mountain for landscapes.... that was it.

Later, I started studying Photography, and found that actually I had a lot more control than I thought with that little camera, IF I used exposure compensation.... But by that time I had got into the fancy SLR cameras that had interchangeable lenses.

Unlike my Grandad's 'Range-Finder' I could actually focus looking through the lens, which made them a bit easier; and while they had the same electronic exposure system as my XA2 'instamatic' it was all fully over-rideable, and I could, like my Grandad, select my own depth of focus and shutter speeds and things.

But, by the early 1990's, 'Auto-Focus' had come along, and with increasingly wide range 'zoom' lenses, they were becoming ever more like 'extended capability' instamatic cameras...

And by the milenium, when we started to go 'digital' (a revolution in phgotography I have yet to really catch up with!)... they WERE pretty much extended capability Instamatics.

Modern Digital SLR camera, set to 'Auto' works pretty much like your little Digi-Compact.... probably has a bigger zoom lense that covers a wider range of focal lengths, and might have a higher resolution sensor in it..... BUT.... almost ANY 'idiot' can pic one up, point and press and get pretty decent pics from it.

The 'Skill' has been shifted from the user, to the tool....

And a complete numpty can rely on the skill in the tool to get a pretty good result..... but a real expert can still often do better with it.

And cars, and possibly bikes, are going the same way...

With only one 'blip'... the Single-Lense-Reflex cameras of my childhood, were the tool of the 'professional' or serious ameteur; Now, they are more often a consumer product, a more expensive 'Instamatic'... and particularly in the lower to middle price ranges, they DONT actually have the features or controls that offer the 'expert' the opportunity to over-ride the cameras base programming and use THIER skill....

These days, lazy, I quite hapily rely on the camera to do the hard work for me.... 90% of the time, it does what I would anyway.... and my £50 digi-compact, gets me pictures, where to do what I USED to do with a silver halide SLR.... I would have to be looking at a £500 or more camera, and THEN the lenses to go on it!

Is that extra 10% REALLY worth the extra cost and inconvenience AND the effort to use it?

This is where 'Smart' technology leads... it centres on an 'Acceptable Quality Level',,, makes it accessible to almost all, but the 'loss' is that it CAN make it actually HARDER to achieve 'excellence'.... certainly more expensive.

So while I think that electronic 'smart' transmissions MAY be the future.... I don't necessarily say that with any 'enthusiasm'
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[goto10]

It's a shame the paddle shift buttons can't be put by the foot on a normal gear lever - that way I could have full auto but a clutchless gear lever (a-la C90!) for when I fancied doing it the old fashioned way. I don't like the idea of buttons to change gear - other than that I think DSG/DCT is pretty awesome.
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'12 NC700S & '12 CB600F Hornet [Stolen by some dickless twat] Suzuki GT500 shed

[JonnyFoxtrot]

[Cunnington]

My mate's quad bike on his farm is a Honda with a semi-automatic gear box which is controlled by 3 buttons and your left thumb.

It was pretty good as far as letting you focus on where you were going, which I suppose is a benefit for a work tool such as a quad bike. That said, it was pretty clunky, and when it screwed up, you were immobile, whereas you would be able to abuse a manual into getting you back.

I once had a freelander as a hire car, which had a double clutch automatic box, which was pretty impressive, non of the lull that a traditional auto gives when it changes. I did find that I was getting lazy, and struggled a bit to get back into manual mode when I got my own car back.

If you combine the two, I reckon it would be pretty good. Would I want one - probably not - it's more to go wrong.
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'82 C50, '81 CB100, '84 GS125, '95 NTV650, '00 Bandit 600, '06 SV650, '56 Z1000, '89 NTV600
The Shaggy D.A. wrote: "You are invisible. Those who can see you are trying to kill you."

[rac3r]

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[Kickstart]

Hi

Not sure it appeals to me to be honest.

A load of extra weight, complexity and cost for something that gives minor improvements in how quickly it can change gear, which on the road isn't that much of a concern to me and which I can't say I even notice taking time. On a drag strip maybe though (but never fitted the air shifter I have to the GSXR).

Haven't yet driven a twin clutch car, and again not sure it appeals. Have done a fair few miles in an Alfa 156 Selespeed (push button manual gearbox, not based on an automatic) and initially it did appeal. However on that it feels like there is a long delay while it changes gear (not sure there really is, probably an illusion as you are sitting there waiting for it to happen rather than stirring the gear stick), although this should be far less of an issue with a DCT box. However what I do find is that it is far less involving to drive. I have come to the conclusion that overall I like changing gear!

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[ClockworkJesu...]

Not a big fan.
I'm 20, so, I've always been surrounded by technology for as long as I can remember; and yeah, I like that my computer does a lot for me, or that my microwave will always count accurately, and that - at a few presses of a button - I can have anything from anywhere in the world delivered to my doorstep;

but I'm passionate about bikes. I love being able to integrate myself with the machine as a whole; to actuate the clutch, choose the gears, operate the brakes...
An electrical system doing all that for me would take that Man/Machine integration away for me. Half the reason I love carbed bikes so much is that the only thing hindering the engine's progress is the laws of physics; not a computer program.

[robbieguy2003]

Dual clutches are already in performance bikes, albeit only in prototype form - Honda, Yamaha and Ducati all run some variation of DCT on their GP projects, and they have to weigh what? 157KG or whatever the limit is? So it can be done I suppose, the issue for a consumer at the moment is cost.

It's expensive on the big VFR, and that's not a sports bike.

I'd imagine in 5-8 years it'll become an option on the 600/1000 sports bikes, much like ABS has became an option on some now.

I do agree about the requirements though, it's different for a car and bike. Slow speed maneuvers in a car are a little easier, because you don't have the added issue of trying to balance. That back brake/throttle/clutch control is something that's taught to riders, so it must be able to fit in without much adjustment to standard riding.

When it comes to something sporty, or something I fancy, I'll definitely give it a go. The big question is, will it be a game changer and become the norm, or will it be something like linked brakes which actually didn't take off in a big way?

Time will tell I suppose.
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Current Bikes: Honda CBR 600RR - '07, Suzuki GSX1250 FA ST '11
Old Bikes: Suzuki Intruder 125 LC - '2001, Honda CBR 600F - '92, Honda CBR 600RR - '03