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Plastic tank expansion

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slowside
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PostPosted: 11:27 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Plastic tank expansion Reply with quote

I want to change the filter and plugs on my Sprint. Being a 20+ year old bike with a plastic tank, some anecdotal evidence suggests that the tank may swell once unbolted from the bike and be difficult/impossible to refit afterwards.

Has anyone had any direct experience of this, and remedies for it?

I plan to run the tank as dry as possible before hand and do the job as quickly as possible to minimise time for it to swell.

Every job I've done on this bike has proven to be far more trouble than it first seemed, so I'm expecting this to be no different.
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steve the grease
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had no end of problems with this and I believe it to be a well documented problem with Ducati's at some time, I certainly found a lot about online.
My bike has an Acerbis tank and my tank expands when I leave it with petrol in it. Petrol currently has 5% alcohol added to it, we are changing to 10% and the problems are only going to get worse. Alcohol absorbs moisture fromthe air - water.
The tank is vented to the atmosphere- as the temerature changes air goes in and out of the tank. This air contains moisture, in certain conditions the water condenses and then dissolves in the alcohol. This causes the tank to expand. On my bike I literally cannot undo the filler cap without using a strap wrench ,if I leave it stood for a month with fuel in. If I'm not using the bike for more than a couple of days I drain the tank using an electric pump into a red fuel can and leave the filler cap off.

https://www.ducatimonster.org/threads/tank-swelling-remedies.210509/
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't say I know much about this subject but I'd like to learn a bit more...

Surely if the type of plastic used is prone to warping in the presence of water then the general humidity in the air outside the tank would have some affect regardless of whether you drained the inside? Thinking

Put it another way: are these plastic tanks going to go wonky regardless and ethanol just speeds up the process?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if it would be worth throwing some stabiliser in there? I'm using frost ethomix in my 91 VFR750.
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slowside
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PostPosted: 15:43 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Can't say I know much about this subject but I'd like to learn a bit more...

Surely if the type of plastic used is prone to warping in the presence of water then the general humidity in the air outside the tank would have some affect regardless of whether you drained the inside? Thinking

Put it another way: are these plastic tanks going to go wonky regardless and ethanol just speeds up the process?


I think it is due to ethanol being both a solvent and hygroscopic, so it softens the plastic of the tank as well as drawing in moisture from the air.

Having looked into it more, it seems BP and Esso don't adulterate their premium petrol with Ethanol, so I may just switch to that.
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

BP, ESSO, TEXICO, SHELL all have the E5 on all there pumps in Lancs. Shocked
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MCN
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PostPosted: 08:17 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowside wrote:


Having looked into it more, it seems BP and Esso don't adulterate their premium petrol with Ethanol, so I may just switch to that.


If it's biofuel then it has a substantial % of plant extracts in it. (Ethanol)

https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/bp-magazine/bp-expands-biofuels-business-in-brazil.html
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slowside
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PostPosted: 08:36 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:


If it's biofuel then it has a substantial % of plant extracts in it. (Ethanol)

https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/bp-magazine/bp-expands-biofuels-business-in-brazil.html


I've not double checked BP, but taken from Esso:

Esso wrote:

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

Our Synergy Fuels:

Diesel
Supreme+ Diesel
Unleaded
Supreme+ Unleaded

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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTM with plastic tank, can confirm it's harder to put back in than take out.
The length of the tank seems to mean bolting it back to the frame is a lot harder than a metal tank, as the holes are out of alignment.

I used a lever with padding to pry the tank back and got a bolt in one side then did the same on the other.

I believe it's even worse in some US states where they use higher concentrations of ethanol.

I've taken to using premium fuels, Shell and Esso apparently don't contain any.
Most places otherwise are marked as E5.

Ducatti owners are well aware but there's some other models listed here.
https://deformedfueltanks.com/
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slowside
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's quite annoying. I mean, even my little YBR had a metal tank.

Why does my premium marque British sports tourer get a Playmobil tank?
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A100man
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PostPosted: 15:52 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowside wrote:
It's quite annoying. I mean, even my little YBR had a metal tank.

Why does my premium marque British sports tourer get a Playmobil tank?


I don't get it either.. It's not like ethanol in fuel is recent or been kept a secret. Presumably there are some benefits of a plastic tank?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
KTM with plastic tank, can confirm it's harder to put back in than take out.
The length of the tank seems to mean bolting it back to the frame is a lot harder than a metal tank, as the holes are out of alignment.

I used a lever with padding to pry the tank back and got a bolt in one side then did the same on the other.

I believe it's even worse in some US states where they use higher concentrations of ethanol.

I've taken to using premium fuels, Shell and Esso apparently don't contain any.
Most places otherwise are marked as E5.

Ducatti owners are well aware but there's some other models listed here.
https://deformedfueltanks.com/


Nice to see something specific in this debate. Mostly there's ppl raving about "plastic tanks" like they're just a thing but obviously there are all sorts of plastics.

Polyamide Plastic seems to be the problem as it's known to degrade in the presence of pure Ethanol (therefore only a matter of time with dilutions.)

I turned up this list:

https://omnexus.specialchem.com/polymer-properties/chemical-resistance/ethanol-96-20-c

Look carefully for a replacement tank and decent ones seem to be HDPE (high density polyethylene.) Well worth checking before dropping $$$ on a Ducati tank.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 03 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

If money was no object then aluminium aftermarket tanks are available.

Https://beater-japan.com/?p=267

Can cram an extra 4.5 litres in, is a thing of real beauty.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:41 - 03 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
If money was no object then aluminium aftermarket tanks are available.

Https://beater-japan.com/?p=267

Can cram an extra 4.5 litres in, is a thing of real beauty.


Ouch! Over 2 bags Sad Otherwise that's the sort of thing you could happily have sat on a shelf as a piece of art Smile
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:59 - 04 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Mille R has the plastic fuel tank also. Seems to be ok up to now, touch wood.
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steve the grease
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 05 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowside wrote:
It's quite annoying. I mean, even my little YBR had a metal tank.

Why does my premium marque British sports tourer get a Playmobil tank?


One reason might be because building press tools to form sheet metal is really very expensive , worth paying out if you are making thousands and thousands of bikes , less economic for a limited production run of only a few thousand.

Just to point out as well as we move towards fuel with 10% alcohol becoming the norm. Alcohol/ water in fuel isn't just a problem for tanks, it can affect fuel lines and the alloys in Carburettors badly as well. One of the reasons that many fuel injection parts are made of plastic.
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arry
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 05 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve the grease wrote:
Petrol currently has 5% alcohol added to it, we are changing to 10% and the problems are only going to get worse.


Swapping to a labelled E10, but unlikely to actually be 10% - if you had E5 and put 5.1% ethanol in it, it has to be called E10; and the consultation that they've run seemed to finish on going for a bit of a halfway house, so it'll be about E7 in reality.

Good thing is they've decided to leave Super Unleaded as is so that those that don't have a car compatible with E10 can still drive it, but with an added cost of course. But at least there's the option to avoid if it you so wish and can afford the premium fuel.
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