GP bikes faster than F1 cars on the straights

[rac3r]

An interesting point came up during quali at Catalunya, Moto GP bikes are faster down the main straight than F1 cars even though they come out of the last corner around 10% slower. They are also 50% slower overall

So far Rossi has been fastest through the speed trap at 210 mph
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[Mikey3]

[daemonoid]

50% slower? F1 record is 1:21, motogp is 1:41. meaning f1 is 20% faster or motogp is 25% slower depending which way round you do the maths.

Also, there's an extra chicane for the F1 cars on the last corner so I'm surprised they're still exiting faster!
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@thomasgarrard | www.straitjkt.com | www.racingseven.com

[drzsta]

They were saying that because an F1 car is designed almost entirely for down force, in the straights they suffer terribly from drag.
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Current Bikes - BMW S1000RR ‘17 & KTM 690 SMC-R ‘12

[rac3r]

I'd like to see it actually happen. But after the straight they should stop to save the embarrassment for the GP bike
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Bikes : 2006 CBR125R - 2004 Monster 620ie - 2004 ZX-6R B1H - 2005 Monster S2R 800 - 2011 Street Triple - 2009 Streetfighter 1098 - 2014 ZX-6R 636

[rac3r]

[T0MMY]

Point is though that F1 (like MotoGP) is optimising for overall lap time (obviously).

There's no doubt an F1 car could go faster than a MotoGP bike as it has far more power without probably having that much more drag* but they balance top speed (low drag) against cornering ability (high downforce). It just happens that on that track that balance means the bikes have higher top speed. It doesn't really mean anything.

Kind of stating the obvious I know.

*Actually I'd be interested to know if an F1 car could have less drag than a bike anyway...higher Ca but probably lower Cd? If set up for top speed I mean.
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ZX6R + CBR600RR

[Jim Mc]

The FIA has a ton of rules limiting the performance of the F1 cars. So this is definitely comparing apples to oranges.

[rac3r]

Party poopers
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Bikes : 2006 CBR125R - 2004 Monster 620ie - 2004 ZX-6R B1H - 2005 Monster S2R 800 - 2011 Street Triple - 2009 Streetfighter 1098 - 2014 ZX-6R 636

[T0MMY]

Ok, here's an interesting point...how much closer would the lap times between F1 cars and bikes be if you banned aero-effects from the cars? I mean purely relying on mechanical grip. I think the cars would still be quicker but not by much. Of course they would be so fast on the straights they'd have to limit them somehow for safety anyway.

What is the fastest car racing series that doesn't significantly utilise downforce?
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ZX6R + CBR600RR

[Blau Zedong]

[MarJay]

[T0MMY]

[daemonoid]

[lihp]

Bikes have quite a lot if drag at high speeds. Especially suprising considering their small frontal area.

Bikes don't leave the air anywhere nearly as cleanly as a car, it is this turbulent air coming off the back that produces significant drag

[rac3r]

Le Mans and GT cars are pretty quick
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Bikes : 2006 CBR125R - 2004 Monster 620ie - 2004 ZX-6R B1H - 2005 Monster S2R 800 - 2011 Street Triple - 2009 Streetfighter 1098 - 2014 ZX-6R 636

[weasley]

BAR (and subsequently Honda) managed around 250 mph with a straight-line optimised, FIA-approved car.
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Yamaha XJ600 | Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat | KTM 990 SMT | BMW F900XR TE

[Mikey3]

[shooter]

[Wave2k]

Also Aussie V8s go round real corners which require more skill.

It also requires YOU not to be brain dead to watch.
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[T0MMY]

[Teflon-Mike]

Back in the 80's I spannered for a bloke running an ex BRM 1500 Alfa F1 car in Formula Libra open wheeler - 'open' class; basically anything without a tin-top goes; lots of the FF16 & FF2000 boys used it as an extra entry on thier card and embarresed the old Alfa-BRM, unfortunately, but it was obsolete by a couple of decades.

Meanwhile, sat in the pit wall with a calender and clip-board to record my drivers lap-times I was able to enjoy the spectacle of the front runners.

Consistently at the front, dueling the entire seven rounds, was an obsolete Ford V8 Powered Formula 5000 (I believe the bored out version of the Cosworth DFV motor), and an equally obsolete Full 'Ground Effect' Forumula 3 Heart.

Down-Force vs Brute-Force

The F3 Heart, was 2litre twin-cam, punting I was informed some-where in the region of 250bhp and weighing 'bog all', with a venturi floor 'skirted' like a hover-craft to maintain the vacuum under the car and keep it on the track, without big, drag inducing wings.

Formula 5000, was more obscure, and I think related to the US Cart or Indy cars, and an attempt in the 1500 'Turbo' F1 era to bring back, 'big-bore' open wheelers to Europe.

Either way, it was a wonderful spectacle, watching the big brutish Indy-car, and hearing its deep, V8 thunder, roaring past the bee-in a been-tin F3 car on every straight, and sliding wide in every corner, where the F3, passed him under braking holding the tight line, ONLY to be passed once the FF5K car had got the plot pointing vaguely in the right direction, and floored it past again!

One thing I got from the pit wall, was the noise of that F3 car going past at close quarter, with the hover-craft skirts dragging on the deck... wiered! It was rather like a Hoover on crack!

Same series was also running the Anglo-American Trans-am Challenge; Front runners for that was a (1970's) Aston-Martin DBS... or more precicley, what was left of one.... and a Ford Mustang Mach II, or what was left of one.

Running to super-saloon, type regulations, these were 'silhuette-specials' with full bird-cage chassis, with fibreglass replica-ish body work over the top. Again running 'almost' full ground effect venturi floors, though without the F3 hover-craft skirts.

Third top runner in that was a Ford-Capri RS3100, again, what might have been left of one!

Given how hopelessly outclassed the Capri was to the Mustang & Aston, it was quite impressive to see.

In the Libra class, championship was taken at the end of the day by the FF5K..... Brute Force wins.

Was a very close thing though, and it came down to the F3 car having ONE low placing... lapping back-markers, there was a little paint trading occurred, and debris lodged in the F3 cars skirt, causing loss of down-force and a spin on one corner, WHICH he cough back before the traps, and managed to get back on track to score points.

The FF5K? MESSY, very very messy! Every corner was a drama to that car, and by rights, F3 should have pipped him. BUT?

It's the 'dependability' and PREDICTABILITY of low-tech, pushed beyond the limits, compared to high-tech, extending them.... technology wins every time, until the technology fails.... but you can 'push' low tech well past the limits and keep doing it.

In the Trans-am series; it was the Aston that ultimately took the title, with the Capri I think taking No3 spot.

In five out of the seven Rounds, the Mach II had been giving him a hard run for his money, and there was some great racing to bee seen.

Silverstone, one of the fastest circuits, round five; I think its woodcotte at the start of the pit-straight. Silverstone is an old aerodrome, and ised to be basically three long straights joined by almost hair-pin 120 degree corners, but there's a little 'jiggle' at the top end, so that woodcotte is a fast sweeping bend.

Lap after lap, I would watch as these two cars; the black Aston & Yellow 'Tang came around that corner almost side by side, and thundered past me, until about three laps from the end, 'Tang came round on the inside, muscling the Aston off line, and as he powered through..... missed his change.

Big-Block 427 went 'bang' as he over revved it, a rod coming through the side of the block, FEET from where I sat, killing his chances for the season.... pitty really he was still on a wally-plate too!

And then came the Capri.... doggedly hanging on among the front runners, wringing everything he could get out of that little V6, against heavy metal with twice as many cubes, SLIDING it through the corners to stay with them.

Carol Shelby, was once asked, why, when they were running the 289 'small-block' Cobra's on the European Circuit and taking Le-Mans places with them, why they never built a coil-sprung version, like the later 'Big-Block' 427. His answer was "Whey're winnin, aint they?"

But read a comment by one of his 'occasional' drivers; who reckoned that the European championship 'FAI' spec Cobras were possibly the 'fastest' cobras around a track, despite the later 427's having bigger numbers.

He said that the FIA 289 Cobra was a 'Handful' but long before it reached the limit, it let you know it, and a brave driver could exploit that, and the car didn't have the grip the later-ones did, BUT, you could 'herd' it through the slide and not have to back off. The 427, was a 'handful' too, but when it had had enough, it would turn right round and bite that hand clean off.

Back to BIKES!

I started paying attention to GP racing in the early 80's. I remember , JUST Mike Hailwood, and the mourning when he died. But it was the era of the rising American 'Aces', who brought a 'new style' to European circuits, and who for a decade or more, dominated the scene, obscenely power-sliding round the worlds premier circuits.

A lot of comment was made at the time of Riders like Eddie Lawson or Kenny Roberts 'Dirt-Track' origins; 'Rear-Wheel-Steering', and 'Hanging off', compared to the neat, tidy 'tucked in' style of earlier European riders like Hailwood, Agostini or Sheene.

A lot of comment was also made about how the power of 500GP bikes so outstripped their handling and significantly their tyres, and attributed so many of Sheene's crashes to that imbalance; yet there were the Yanks, riding the wheels off these bikes, and when the tyres stopped gripping... they carried on! Drifting and sliding them to make them go round corners.

Its NOT all about 'Grip' or power to weight ratio's or aerodynamics.

End of the day, you are using a certain amount of technology in the face of physics and nature; THEN it comes down to brute-force, ignorance, innate skill, and often SHEAR blind LUCK!

It is apples and oranges, comparing cars & bikes in GP, only similarities they have is that they are both mechanically propelled vehicles carrying 'one' human round a track.

Level of racing today, is so far detached, so specialised, from road-going vehicles, and the state of the art technology at the constructors disposal so great, that ultimately, the lap times are NOT really deturmined by EITHER the form of the vehicle or how many wheels it has, or by whether they utilise down-force or traction 'aids', but by the class regulators, who constantly change the rules, frequently capping speeds, either for safety, or for costs, or for closer racing.

Bought a magazine, a while back for an article on the cover; "How Race Regulations have held back the evolution of the motorcycle"

Wish I hadn't bothered; it basically was a thinly disguised eulogy to the passing of the two-stroke, balanced with 'praise' for the new four-stroke biased Moto GP regs, giving the class more relevance to real road bikes, and mentioning the evolutionary design 'avenues' class regulation had nipped in the but, without actually exploring them; such as banning super-charging, or the 'kneeler' form of motorcycle, and the co-incident innovation of the 'dustbin' semi-enclosed fearing.... article ultimately failed to explore any of what I bought it for...

BUT, in the headline "If it wasn't for FIM Race Regulations...."

WOULD we be riding bikes that look like they do? Would they have the form that they do? Would they have the engine technology that they do?

IF they hadn't banned super-charging in the 1950's, WOULD we have seen Honda campaigning oval piston V4 four-strokes against Yamaha & Suzuki's two-strokes?

If they hadn't banned the kneeler or the enveloping dust-bin fairing; WOULD we have seen bikes get lower and longer and take on more stream-liner shapes?

Would THAT, have taken us down a different avenue? When power started so out-stripping handling, and 'safety' became such a consideration; could that 'form' have been exploited, and those 'Dust-bin' fairings, evolved into 'safety-shells'?

Would that have favored the 'tucked in' traditional riding style of the Europeans, over the 'Hang off & Slide the bitch' style of the Yanks in the 80's?

Would that lead us to a completely different 'form' of motorcycle to the ones we have today?

If so.... THEN what would be faster round a GP Circuit?

And..... well... is ANY of this in ANY way, relevant, or meaningful, to ..... well, anything?

Class regs don't let GP Bikes race against F1 cars.......

When the Flag Drops the Bull-Shit STOPS

Curiously, I have always found the converse true.

Soon as the flag drops, and the race ENDS.... then.... the bull-shit STARTS

All the excuses, what-ifs and speculation..... all part of the 'sport' really. Don't change much though.

What do we know?

Cars built to one set of regulations go round a track slightly faster than a bike built to its set of regulations; but the bikes clock slightly faster speeds on the straights, the cars higher speeds in the corners, and......

THEY ALL STILL BLUDY FAST!

(Well.... unless you are talking of a rank amateur of modest skill, and little bravery, driving a twenty year out of date car, with a saloon car engine.... THEN.... hang on, let me check the calendar....)
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[T0MMY]

Epic reply as ever...I actually read all of that one but...

[Cheeseybeaner]

[AyrtonSenna]