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_Will_
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PostPosted: 01:07 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Show me your money Reply with quote
Surprised its not popped up yet, one for hetzer to have a few choice words on.



Of course shows what we already know - that those work hardest for the least, but its the attitudes of those in the more fortunate positions that I just can't fathom, quite sickening.

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/show-me-your-money/video/series-1/episode-1/show-me-your-money
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 02:02 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Who says it's the hardest workers who earn the least?

I apologise now for making some generalisations in the post i'm about to make.

I was brought up in a typical British socialist house. i.e "Look at those at the top getting all that money". I grew up with that ideology, but have completely changed my view.

In this country there a far too many "whingers" who point the finger of envy at others and ask the how and why questions. Yet they sit there and do nothing to better themselves.

How many are on ok'ish jobs, have a mortgage, have a fairly new car and the customary 50" TV?
Yet they complain about the "rich", wish they had a better job and want a better house. Well what is stopping them?

They can change jobs, retrain, even go back in to education. But that is the thing, they need some gusto to do that. Sell the newish car and get an older one. Sell the house and rent. Sell the TV get a 32". Then they have freed up money to pay off debts which would allow them to retrain/re-educate themselves to get that better job.
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TheSmiler
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PostPosted: 02:32 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
One of the replies (when they were in the call centre from a plumber) reminded me of my favourite poem Not My Business by Niyi Osundare.

Although people may see is as disgusting or can't fathom why some people wouldn't help others out in the company, I'd have a gander that a lot of people here would be the same when it was asked for you or other members to lower their wage for someone else. Won't admit it obviously as that would seem cowardly or evil, just like when they asked the plumbers to knock down their wages for call centre staff and then they phoned back and said no way plus started winging.

Regarding the furniture it isn't seriously hard to get a better tv or other furniture look at places like ebay and you will see leather executive computer chairs as an example going for £5. OR go on gumtree and you could get other items there are many ways of upgrading furniture.

What I'm surprised no one picked up on is the retirement program expecting people to work till they are 80, only job you will be able to apply for is the pope that seems to come up every few years.
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Mushroom
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PostPosted: 05:20 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSvBquNmoR9QdcdjaHZdgfgQ7QW2dVWEWBE-h3u8WRHl_XKEd7


Wink
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:04 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are notable exceptions - I've worked for a couple - who grafted their way up to the don't-really-need-to-work-any-more ranks, but there's the hard way, and there's the smart way.

The smart way is still to get born into the right family, get the right education and have or make the right contacts early in life. I know a few of those as well, but am not myself smart enough to take advantage of it. Wink

I'm not really whinging about it, that's just human nature. You employ my "good at sports and geography" nephew Horatio, I give a corner office to your nice-but-dim cousin Jocasta. Social Anthropology 3rds all round, chaps.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the point is that people are beginning to question the sense in having a system set up so that a small number of people can claim most of the spoils, and keep increasing the proportion of the overall wealth they posess.

Given the slow rate at which the economy is growing, where does the increased share taken by 'the rich' come from?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16545898

Quote:
The High Pay Commission reported that these executives' total pay had risen by 49% during the previous year alone, compared with average increases of less than 3% for their employees.

The rise left the chief executives with average pay of £4.2m. That was 145 times the average pay of their employees and 162 times the British average wage.


I don't think it's 'whinging' to point out that this is a pretty nutty situation. I don't know - maybe some would argue that the CEO brings 145 times more value to the company than - on average - all the other employees? Sure, many of those at the bottom of the hierarchy are 'replacable' (i.e. it doesn't matter who does the job, so long as there's someone there to do it), but the ratio between those and the executives is even greater. Bob Diamond on £18m, bank cashier on £18k, that's 1000:1. Is that just 'how things work'? There are signs that people are beginning to think it's not:

https://www.moneyweek.com/blog/shareholders-are-finally-starting-to-get-it-on-executive-pay-21600

Quote:
The piece tells the story of how 55% of the shareholders of Citibank voted against the bank’s plans to pay its CEO tens of millions of dollars in compensation for no obvious reason.


A sub-3% average pay rise whilst CEOs get 49% does rather look like a kick in the teeth - especially when you consider the limited marginal utility of that 49% payrise to someone who is already extremely well-off. We're working longer hours, for more of our lives - and who actually benefits?

Years ago it was suggested that the progress of technology would mean that we'd need to work fewer hours to maintain an acceptable standard of living. This is an interesting read:

https://chronicle.com/article/In-Praise-of-Leisure/132251/

Quote:
The beginning of sanity in this matter is to think of scarcity in relation to needs, not wants. And this is how we do normally think of it. The man with three houses is not thought to be in dire straits, however urgent his desire for a fourth. "He has enough," we say, meaning "enough to meet his needs." Flagrant manifestations of insatiability—such as an uncontrollable desire to collect cats or dollhouses—are widely viewed as pathological, not normal. We are all, in principle, capable of limiting our wants to our needs; the problem is that a competitive, monetized economy puts us under continual pressure to want more and more. The "scarcity" discerned by economists is increasingly an artifact of this pressure. Considered in relation to our vital needs, our state is one not of scarcity but rather of extreme abundance.


(I have no idea what the TV program was actually about, and it was probably rubbish anyway. Wink I'm not really sure why I've written any of this...)
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_Will_
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:
i think the md of that company is an absolute muppet.

'im in the business of making money'


oh yeah.. just managed to find 30k lying around because of the inefficiencies in the maintenance department.


Exactly wtf are management/accounts doing, the engineers are paid less but find savings in less than a week.

I guess the real reason is they don't care as anything purchased is offset come tax time.

It galls that some of the brain dead spackers that struggle to operate a keyboard are paid in excess of £120k for a 'trade' job and look down on office staff paid 1/10th of them and think thats perfectly 'fair'.

I think one of them said something like 'you chose to do that job', but it isn't that simple, everyone has to do a role or their own job wouldn't be there ffs.

The wealth gap is bloody ridiculous.

I'm all for working hard and being rewarded, but there are so many people that are completely useless/do less than many below sitting in cushy well paid jobs that don't appreciate how fortunate they are/how much less everyone else has.
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D O G
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The labour market is exactly that - a market, goverened by supply and demand.

There are far fewer individuls who have the experience and qualifications to be, say, a Finance Director than there are who can operate machinery/manage stores/design products. Hence the FD gets paid a lot more.

Simple.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
So why is engineering one of the worst-paid graduate jobs when there is supposedly a dearth of qualified people? The Telegraph article on 'best and worst paid graduate jobs' pointed to both the 'short supply' of engineers, and that the average graduate salary is well below the national average.

Quote:
Marcus Agius, Barclays' chairman, and his board are still trotting out the old chestnut that bumper salaries are justified on the grounds that, if they don't pay them, people like Diamond will up sticks and leave. I don't buy this; it's a cheap form of blackmail. Nor do I think it's true. And if they walk? Well, let them. I can't believe there aren't equally talented bankers down the ladder.

No, they are being paid so much because they can get away with it; or at least have been able to until now. But, as I wrote a few weeks ago, it doesn't matter how much the public – or the media – rants about executive salaries; the situation will only change if investors want change.


From: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/margareta-pagano/margareta-pagano-will-pay-prove-to-be-barclays-next-apartheid-row-7645637.html

See also https://www.moneyweek.com/blog/the-myth-of-talent-00115

Quote:
Consider the case of Lionel Messi (a very good Argentinian football player, apparently). His individual performance and impact are very measurable: we know how many goals he scores and how many he helps to score. We can see his skill in action. So we know he is a rare talent and that if his current club doesn't pay him a fortune, someone else will. According to the theory, the same is true of top CEOs: they have a rare talent and must therefore be paid a fortune – 531 times the average blue collar worker's pay in the US at the moment.

But there's a problem here. We can't measure a CEO's talent as we can that of Mr Messi. We can't know if any one CEO has a rare talent - or any talent at all. Every big company has tens of thousands of employees contributing to success or failure. Indeed, many companies perform well despite poor leadership, helped along by buoyant economies, market positions put in place by predecessors, or excellent middle managers.

The fact that we can't measure this talent doesn't mean it doesn't ever exist. But it does make the case much harder to prove. It seems very, very likely that there are actually a substantial number of people knocking about just as capable of doing each CEO's job as the CEO in place.

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The Artist
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
nfo wrote:
So why is engineering one of the worst-paid graduate jobs when there is supposedly a dearth of qualified people? The Telegraph article on 'best and worst paid graduate jobs' pointed to both the 'short supply' of engineers, and that the average graduate salary is well below the national average.


Because of all the graduates and current students I have had the pleasure of working with, they knew the theory but fuck all about real world engineering and were laid off within months. They joined the company after graduating, were put on 25k~ and failed to do their job.

Now what employer is going to offer some kid who has no idea what he is doing and got laid off 3 months after working for an engineering firm more than 20k a year just because he has a degree? Not many.
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Redoko
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PostPosted: 17:11 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting to see what BCF's PPA is.

Probably find out Hetzer's on 250k.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
nfo wrote:
So why is engineering one of the worst-paid graduate jobs when there is supposedly a dearth of qualified people? The Telegraph article on 'best and worst paid graduate jobs' pointed to both the 'short supply' of engineers, and that the average graduate salary is well below the national average.


Because of all the graduates and current students I have had the pleasure of working with, they knew the theory but fuck all about real world engineering and were laid off within months. They joined the company after graduating, were put on 25k~ and failed to do their job.

On the other hand, I know many people who have graduated with an engineering degree and gone to work for engineering firms, and none of them have been laid off - in fact they're all doing very well. Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Airbus, Aston Martin, NVIDIA, International Rectifier, Control Techniques, GE, Infineon, Ricardo, AVL, Shell, ESA, EADS, Plextek and others - these companies all have a successful history of recruiting graduates, and continue to do so.

Last time I was looking, Jaguar Land Rover were paying £35k for graduate engineers with a couple of years' experience, most graduate schemes (recognising the difference between study and employment and the need to bridge that gap) start on £25-27k and last a couple of years.

Quote:
Now what employer is going to offer some kid who has no idea what he is doing and got laid off 3 months after working for an engineering firm more than 20k a year just because he has a degree? Not many.

All the examples I listed employ graduates (and that's just a list off the top of my head based on people I know), and they're big, successful companies. An engineering degree is the first step towards chartership, and is far and away the accepted route into a career in engineering. This has been the case for a long time Confused
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
nfo wrote:

All the examples I listed employ graduates (and that's just a list off the top of my head based on people I know), and they're big, successful companies. An engineering degree is the first step towards chartership, and is far and away the accepted route into a career in engineering. This has been the case for a long time Confused


I know most will get jobs and be fine but there are plenty who can't handle it.
I wouldn't consider 35k after 2 years being one of the lowest paid salaries for graduates though.
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metalangel
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PostPosted: 17:28 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:

Because of all the graduates and current students I have had the pleasure of working with, they knew the theory but fuck all about real world engineering and were laid off within months. They joined the company after graduating, were put on 25k~ and failed to do their job.

Now what employer is going to offer some kid who has no idea what he is doing and got laid off 3 months after working for an engineering firm more than 20k a year just because he has a degree? Not many.


Where I work we have a new starter, he's also a graduate (of something or other). A managerial role to be in charge of our team is coming up, and our outgoing team leader came over and suggested he apply for it.

The experienced staff member training him asked why the suggestion wasn't made to her also, team leader replied, "You're not a graduate".

Quite what the fuck that had to do with it was anyone's guess, but the consensus is that the people who think graduates have superpowers tend not to be graduates themselves. I'm a 'graduate' in that I have a worthless degree, but unless you're hiring me to have drinking contests or sex (the two things I actually learned about during my degree) then you're better off getting someone who will be good at the job.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
Because of all the graduates and current students I have had the pleasure of working with, they knew the theory but fuck all about real world engineering and were laid off within months. They joined the company after graduating, were put on 25k~ and failed to do their job.

Now what employer is going to offer some kid who has no idea what he is doing and got laid off 3 months after working for an engineering firm more than 20k a year just because he has a degree? Not many.


Sounds like your company either has a terrible training program or terrible hiring policy. A degree doesn't mean people are going to turn up and be the perfect employee immediately.

It sounds to me that the training / environment is the problem given that chip you have on your shoulder. If you explained the 'real world' to the students you'd find they would be very quickly up to speed and you'd probably get a raise for being the great mentor/manager who's getting such great performance out of the noobs.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 17:30 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's about the best I've seen, and whilst it's hard to get definite numbers, if you start looking for more senior engineering positions (as opposed to management in engineering firms) it doesn't go an awful lot above that.

In 2010 at least, the average starting figure was £23.5k, compared to £36.5k for law and £35k for investment banking. It's no surprise that a lot of good engineering graduates are lured away by the KPMGs and PWCs of this world.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/7879017/Graduate-worst-five-starting-salaries-2010.html?image=1

In the updated list for this year, engineering exceeds only retail and public sector, with investment banking supposedly up to £45k now.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 17:37 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
I know a few people with degrees in various fields who work in dead end jobs because they can't get work anywhere with specialist qualifications.

My personal opinion is that unless you want to become a lawyer / vet / doctor / profession that NEEDS a degree, don't fucking bother with uni these days.

There used to be a time when degrees meant something and opened up opportunities not available to people who didn't have them. Nowadays, employers couldn't give a shit whether you have 5 degrees, they want experience and someone who can be an instant benefit to their workforce, not a hindrance by having to train them.

My friend who has been working for a printing company that does several national newspapers, for a couple of years now, said to me the other day, "I wish I had just left school and gone straight to work somewhere and worked my way up / got qualified".

I'm glad that I didn't go to uni myself, I started quite young learning how to build and develop websites and just continually improved. I earn more money than any of my mates who went to uni who have degrees.

Now the put all the fees up as well, what's the fucking point? Start off your working career in a fuck tonne of debt? No thanks, I will make myself rich, not someone else.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
metalangel wrote:
Where I work we have a new starter, he's also a graduate (of something or other).

So does his job have any relation to what his degree is in?

I would agree that having 'a degree' doesn't mean that someone is automatically 'better' for any job, but if someone's coming into a graduate role in a specific area then having a good, relevant degree from a respected university is going to be a major advantage. You wouldn't go into a graduate job designing microprocessors without a degree in CS or EE, for example.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Of course, having a degree in a specific field and getting a job working in that field is a no brainer. I'm saying that if you don't actually NEED a degree for the field you want to work in, what's the point in even going to uni?

Far too many shit degrees you can do now and people doing them just for the sake of it. I've asked a few people who say they want to go to uni, why the want to go and they don't really have an explanation as to what they want to get out of it at the end.

"I'm doing a degree in psychology".

Really? Do you want to be a psychiatrist or something in that field?

"Well, I don't really know what I want to do for sure yet"

WELL, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING THEN?
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 17:57 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe the price rise in uni's is a good thing and people will think twice about it. 4 year degree = 3 years of uni = £27k of debt for any normal degree.

People seem to forget the point of testing and examination is show employers which people are the best. Everyone having a degree makes it harder to distinguish.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
On the other hand, I lived with a girl who did classics (3 hours a week maybe), got involved in 'alumni relations' (calling up and asking for donations) at university, found she had a talent for it and went into a job in software sales straight out of uni. That was four years ago, and she's now got a house by the Thames and a Porsche. I'd say that going to university worked out pretty well for her (and I'm not jealous, much Wink ). There are any number of examples on either side of the argument.

People do still go to university because they're interested in the subject and want to learn more. Not all degrees are directly vocational, which is a good thing - universities were originally about furthering knowledge, not training people for a life of work. Having a good degree, from a good university in a 'non-vocational' subject shows (in theory) that you're bright and capable. That just shouldn't be confused with 'qualified to do a particular job'. It's up to the employer to look for the qualities they value in a particular individual.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
Everyone having a degree makes it harder to distinguish.

Only if you assume that all degrees are of equal value...
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 18:09 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
nfo wrote:
The Artist wrote:
Everyone having a degree makes it harder to distinguish.

Only if you assume that all degrees are of equal value...


Of course not, but lets say 5 students do a BEng, pretty standard degree. Looks like they know their stuff but can be totally different in level of understanding anything outside whatever it was they studied for their degree.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
Of course not, but lets say 5 students do a BEng, pretty standard degree. Looks like they know their stuff but can be totally different in level of understanding anything outside whatever it was they studied for their degree.


That's what interviews are for. CV to get an interview, interview to get a job, probation period to keep it.

If someone gets past the first two steps then it's normally the company's fault if they can't manage the probation - either no support or terrible interviewers.
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nfo
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 12 Jul 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
Of course not, but lets say 5 students do a BEng, pretty standard degree. Looks like they know their stuff but can be totally different in level of understanding anything outside whatever it was they studied for their degree.

Yes, people are different and can't be fully described by one qualification. My point was more that you have to consider the content and standard of the degree.

For example, a friend of mine who graduated last year and works for a big software company has since been involved in the interviewing process. He was surprised at what people with - on paper - a similar degree to him (MSc in computer science) had no idea about, because it simply wasn't in their course ('Big O' notation, used in analysing the complexity of algorithms - pretty fundamental stuff, not some esoteric pet subject of a cranky old professor).
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