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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: insurers to use credit files to increase premiums Reply with quote

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2222085/Why-poor-pay-rich-car-cover.html#ixzz2BqcdzLQX

Britain’s biggest insurers are conducting secret credit checks on drivers and using data to pinpoint claims hotspots in a bid to hike premiums.

These tactics supposedly give the firms more detailed information about what kind of driver you are. But increasingly they threaten to push up prices to even more eye-watering levels.

The tricks are revealed as fears grow that perfectly valid insurance claims are being kicked out simply based on a gut feeling that drivers are lying about claims.

It has prompted the independent ombudsman to issue a strong warning.

Insurers have hiked premiums massively over the past decade. Figures from the AA show the average third party insurance policy has jumped from £362.80 in 2004 to £1,161.77 today — a 220 per cent leap.

The average comprehensive policy has more than doubled from £411 in 2004 to £844 today.

But insurers are desperate to find ways to rake in more cash. They are faced with an estimated £4.7 billion gap in their profits because strict new rules will ban them from taking kick-backs of up to £800 a time by passing accident victims’ details to ambulance-chasing law firms.

On top of this, EU legislation will force them to stop charging male motorists more from December 21. To fight back, Money Mail has discovered insurers are looking in to credit records as a way of deciding how much to charge.

Your credit record contains all your personal information including your history of repaying credit cards, debts and even mobile phone bills.

The theory is that drivers with low credit scores are more likely to struggle to cover the cost of repairing a car — and so would be more likely to claim.

‘This is appalling. Insurers are saying poorer people are riskier,’ says Marc Gander, founder of campaign organisation Consumer Action Group. ‘I doubt there are any proper statistics to prove this. It is just insurers looking for another way of grabbing more of our cash.’

It is understood that trade body the British Insurance Brokers’ Association (BIBA) is so concerned about the trend it has launched an investigation into how insurers are using these personal details.

Graeme Trudgill, head of corporate affairs at BIBA, says: ‘Already if you are unemployed your insurance premiums will be higher because the insurer will believe statistically you may struggle to maintain your car. Doing a credit check would be taking it to the next level.’

Britain’s biggest insurer, Aviva, confirmed it ran credit checks on customers to help decide what kind of premium to offer them.

An Aviva spokesman said: ‘We refer to credit reference agency data, using public and personal information to verify who customers are, prevent fraud, assess insurance risk and offer credit or finance using a process agreed with the agency.’

They said the credit searches will leave a mark on your file only if it is done to decide if you can make monthly premiums. Experts say other insurers are set to follow suit.

Drivers who shop around to buy car insurance using comparison websites already unwittingly allow insurers to run a credit check in the small print.

Insurers in the US have used credit records to decide premiums since the early Nineties.

In nearly one in five cases it causes premiums for drivers to rise. According to a U.S. consumer group, a 28-year-old male motorist with a poor credit score could pay £437 a year more for insurance than a driver with a good score.

Alex Hageli, director of personal lines policy at the Property Casualty Insurers Association of America, says credit records allow insurers to figure out how risky a driver is.

‘One theory is that if you are careful with your credit you are more likely to be careful with other areas of your life, such as maintaining your vehicle,’ he says.

In another move, insurers are using ever more sophisticated software to decide the risk of someone living at a specific address.

Insurers are using your whole postcode — which covers just a few neighbours —rather than the first three or four digits, which dictate your region.

This means if your neighbours have a number of particularly bad accidents, your premiums could soar. Figures from insurer esure show innocent drivers living in the B31 postcode area of Birmingham saw their insurance premiums jump after a 300 per cent increase in claims in their area.

On top of hiking premiums, insurers are taking an increasingly hard line on claims.

Complaints about car insurance problems have increased by a quarter in the past year.

It has prompted the independent complaints adjudicator the Financial Ombudsman Service to warn insurers.

‘We have seen an increase in complaints where some insurers have rejected claims based solely on gut feelings,’ says chief ombudsman Natalie Ceeney. ‘We take a dim view of this and expect insurers to undertake a full investigation for each insurance claim made.’

A spokesman for trade body the Association of British Insurers says: ‘In recent years, motor insurers have faced unprecedented cost pressures from the rise in fraudulent and exaggerated personal injury claims, excessive legal costs and uninsured driving.

‘This is why the industry has campaigned for reforms to ensure all honest customers get the best possible motor insurance deal.’




this is utter bull imo.

your credit history and rating has nothing to do with how well/poorly you maintain your vehicle or how likely you are to claim!
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Re: insurers to use credit files to increase premiums Reply with quote

Usually_Wrong wrote:
your credit history and rating has nothing to do with ... how likely you are to claim!

Really? You can't see how people who are recorded as not being great with their money would possibly consider a vehicle to be a liquifiable asset? People torching their own cars/bikes to get the insurance payout is not a new thing.
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G
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Re: insurers to use credit files to increase premiums Reply with quote

I wonder if they do have statistics to back this up?

I also wonder if the report has evidence to back up that it's happening in this way?

From experience on here we can see a lot of 'poorer' people are much less likely to claim - it's the rick people who can afford the increased insurance that will put through a small claim for the sake of ease.
But then people on here are (amusingly) relatively better 'educated' in such matter, to be fair.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Re: insurers to use credit files to increase premiums Reply with quote

nowhere.elysium wrote:
Usually_Wrong wrote:
your credit history and rating has nothing to do with ... how likely you are to claim!

Really? You can't see how people who are recorded as not being great with their money would possibly consider a vehicle to be a liquifiable asset? People torching their own cars/bikes to get the insurance payout is not a new thing.


or those who dont have unlimited income might actually take MORE care of their vehicle to avoid costly repairs/increased premiums.

low income/poor credit history doesnt mean jack all
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Re: insurers to use credit files to increase premiums Reply with quote

Usually_Wrong wrote:
low income/poor credit history doesnt mean jack all

With regards to most services, I'd agree, although I'm personally aware of at least one case where someone torched their own car to get the insurance payout. I hate insurance premiums as much as the next man, but while their approach to dealing with it is entirely arse-backwards, their initial reasoning isn't totally off.

:edit: Actually, in retrospect, given that many services these days are set up to be paid off automatically, it does stand to reason that they'd want to restrict themselves to people that they can actually rely on to pay their way. I find credit checks invasive and unnecessary, although that's probably got more to do with the fact that I'm annoyed by the insinuation of unreliability on my part. As it stands, I'm not in the habit of letting such things slide.
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Last edited by nowhere.elysium on 14:30 - 24 Nov 2012; edited 1 time in total
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
or those who dont have unlimited income might actually take MORE care of their vehicle to avoid costly repairs/increased premiums.


What a load of tosh.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
Quote:
or those who dont have unlimited income might actually take MORE care of their vehicle to avoid costly repairs/increased premiums.


What a load of tosh.


care to expand on that? or are you just arguing for arguments sake?

i have a poor credit history, so far i've been late in paying ONE insurance payment by 24 hours. yet i would NOT claim because of a low rating or low income. i'll maintain my vehicle more so i dont claim on major repairs, in the event of an accident i'll try and repair my bike myself (if im at fault with no third party)

low income/low credit score doesnt mean anything, they are looking for excuses to jack up premiums because official bodies are cracking down on insurers!
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a financial service, and they check your history of using financial services. This is neither surprising nor particularly unwarranted.

If you're paying your insurance on a monthly basis, you're making use of a loan to do so, hence the higher overall cost, and the credit checks.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowhere.elysium wrote:
It's a financial service, and they check your history of using financial services. This is neither surprising nor particularly unwarranted.

If you're paying your insurance on a monthly basis, you're making use of a loan to do so, hence the higher overall cost, and the credit checks.


credit check to decide whether or not to give you insurance fine, but using it to jack up your premium making it less affordable is wrong on too many levels.

assuming poor rating means your bad with money (which isnt always the case) then making things cost more is kind of backwards way of thinking.

also, we pay a premium for paying off monthly, they have no proof or reason to jack prices higher because of a low rating
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PostPosted: 15:30 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they do run checks and it exposes a trend then they would be fully justified in making the checks. Equally, if the trend shows that, as you seem to infer, people with better credit ratings are a higher risk because they can afford the extra loadings then it's that bracket that will get loaded, not the poor-credit ones.
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arry
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PostPosted: 15:48 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually_Wrong wrote:

low income/low credit score doesnt mean anything


From experience, actually, yes it does. It may come as a surprise to you but in 2 similar books of business (Property Owners ie housing rental market) the one that has by far the most incidents in respect of bodily injury is the housing association sector. It's at a rate of nearly 3 to 1 against the professional lettings market. This is despite the larger housing associations having far superior maintenance schedules and general H&S savvy over the private land-lord.

There's also significant evidence that of investigated injury incidents the lower quartile of income carries with it much higher than average fraudulent claims.

Further to that there's lots data that points towards those with unsettled CCJ's and previous bankruptcies are statistically much more likely to have a severe fire or theft incident at their business premises.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 15:48 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
If they do run checks and it exposes a trend then they would be fully justified in making the checks. Equally, if the trend shows that, as you seem to infer, people with better credit ratings are a higher risk because they can afford the extra loadings then it's that bracket that will get loaded, not the poor-credit ones.



So heads you lose, tails I win? Rolling Eyes
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G
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually_Wrong wrote:
then making things cost more is kind of backwards way of thinking.

You do know this is how most of the world works?

If you can come back with a solution that works differently and WORKS in the real world, I'd love to hear it Smile.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:


If you can come back with a solution that works differently and WORKS in the real world, I'd love to hear it Smile.


Japan?

Kawawshima should know more about this. But your licence and equivilent of road tax has the absolute rock bottom of the barrel required insurance included on it. Absolutely nobody drives with this level of insurance.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 16:05 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Usually_Wrong wrote:
then making things cost more is kind of backwards way of thinking.

You do know this is how most of the world works?

If you can come back with a solution that works differently and WORKS in the real world, I'd love to hear it Smile.


well the postcode risk system works well.

so it would make sense if there was a system similar to the credit file system for insurance.

i.e you start off with a base line figure, more years go by without a claim, your risk factor lowers, the more claims you make/made against you, the risk factor increases.

so baselines would be based as follows (assuming a risk scale of 10, 10 being worst)

third party only: baseline risk of 5
1 year no claim baseline risk -1 lower premium
1 year 1 claim baseline risk + 1 increased premium
1 year 2 claims baseline risk +2 further increased premium

no premium loading for postcode because your not covered for fire or theft anyway so lets face it, postcode risk is irrelevant.

third party fire and theft : baseline risk of 5 but premium increase based on postcode risk (cant see a reduction for postcode risk being viable under this system because of no loading for postcode under third party only)

1 year no claim baseline risk -1 lower premium
1 year 1 claim baseline risk + 1 increased premium
1 year 2 claims baseline risk +2 further increased premium

fully comp uses a slightly more complex assesment as i have no idea how they determine the cost for fully comp.


surely if that information was made available the same as credit ratings are it would be a more fair and accurate way of determining insurance premiums?
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually_Wrong wrote:

surely if that information was made available the same as credit ratings are it would be a more fair and accurate way of determining insurance premiums?



What a foolish suggestion!

Insurers only want premiums to go up like a ratchet, once they go up they want them to NEVER come down.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

fatpies wrote:
Usually_Wrong wrote:

surely if that information was made available the same as credit ratings are it would be a more fair and accurate way of determining insurance premiums?



What a foolish suggestion!

Insurers only want premiums to go up like a ratchet, once they go up they want them to NEVER come down.


erm, its not foolish, its a relatively realistic measure that the british insurance assosiation or who ever they are could bring in and enforce
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually_Wrong wrote:

erm, its not foolish, its a relatively realistic measure that the british insurance assosiation or who ever they are could bring in and enforce



It is realistic yes, and it might work yes.


However your goals and the goals of insurers are not aligned.

Insurers want to increase profits as much as possible, worm out of ever paying out of insurance (see USA where medical insurance delays as much as possible so you die) and increasing premiums as much as possible to increase profits.

While your goals are to get the best insurance deals.

This is incompatible with that of the insurance companies.


Since the insurance companies hand 'brown envelopes' to the government you can bet which side the government will side with and here is a clue its NOT YOU.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
well the postcode risk system works well.


No it doesn't.

I've never had to claim on a lost bike nor had a fault accident claim on one. My credit rating is perfect and I don't buy my insurance on installments, but my premiums are very high due to my postcode.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
Quote:
well the postcode risk system works well.


No it doesn't.

I've never had to claim on a lost bike nor had a fault accident claim on one. My credit rating is perfect and I don't buy my insurance on installments, but my premiums are very high due to my postcode.


well its not perfect but i merely meant the initial principle of it.

that being that certain postcodes are higher risk, the system itself works but its being twisted and distorted by the insurance companies and their "sophisticated software"
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually_Wrong wrote:

well the postcode risk system works well.

First off, I was talking about *everything* - not just finance or insurance.

Secondly, the post code risk system is invariably biased against the poor.
Poorer areas generally have a higher crime and insurance claim rate - so get higher insurance premiums.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Usually_Wrong wrote:

well the postcode risk system works well.

First off, I was talking about *everything* - not just finance or insurance.

Secondly, the post code risk system is invariably biased against the poor.
Poorer areas generally have a higher crime and insurance claim rate - so get higher insurance premiums.


erm....thats a given considering most thieving scum tend to live in poorer areas.

the simple solution would be to live in the most viably un-poor area you can comfortably afford. granted in this economy thats not always possible, but generally, leave the scummy areas to the scum.
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U_W v2.0
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

also, is there a site where you can see your own postcode risk assesment? or whatever lol. be curious to see my postcodes report.
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G
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what you're suggesting is that people need to spend more on daily living to get lower insurance premiums?

Just what those with bad credit history need!
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 24 Nov 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you think that differentiating between people by their postcode is fairer than differentiating by fiancial risk, when financial risk is what they deal in?
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