Can somebody explain to me how indicator relays work

[binge]

Okay, in Laymans terms, how on earth do I work out what indicator relay I need.

I've got 4 standard Honda indicators on my Chaly, with standard bulbs in.
I have no idea what bulb number they are, but they are bigger than 501 bulbs, but not as big as car type single filament tail light / indicator bulbs etc.

They're quite fat, and stumpy, and I think 21watts each.

Now I've burnt out 2 relays now. 2 pin, electric relays, not the mechanical type like fitted to old cars that tick when they flash.

It worked for about 20 mins, and now the bulbs just stay on solid, dont flash at all.

Pete. explained briefly on the phone to me the other day but I still dont fully understand what relay I need to buy.

Would I be better off buying 4 LED indicator bulbs (if they exist), and then an LED 2 pin relay?
That way, I guess it would save on the battery too.




Cheers,



Ben

[_Iain_]

LED/low wattage bulbs & an LED relay should sort it. Probbably too much draw on the relay burning it out.
____________________
Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340

[Teflon-Mike]

Two types of flasher; electro-mechanical... the kind that click, or solid state, that are pure entirely electronic.

In an electro-mech flasher, you have a solenoid, when you switch the circuit 'on', current flows through the indicators, but also through the solenoid that tries to turn them 'off'.

Solenoid is a big coil of wire, and that acts as a 'choke' so there is some 'lag' while the solenoid builds up volts to break the circuit, and a bit more for the switch contacts to actually move apart....

THEN when the circuit is broken by the solenoid..... it turns itself off... and another lag happens before the contacts return, usualy aided by a spring... which turns the indies and solenoid back on.... so it does it again.... and again and again, until the supply is cut by turning teh indicator switch off.

Get it? Electro-magnetic switch, turning itself on and off via a 'tuned' feed-back loop, which is dependent on the wattage of the bulbs, the contact gap in the switch and the strength of the spring.

Solid State, or electronic flashers, simple electronic circuit; a quartz chyrystal when a DC voltage is applied to it, 'oscilates' providing a swuare wave out-put.... basically doing the same thing the electro-mech flasher does, but for a much smaller current.

Using transistors, however, to pass a higher current, tyriggered by the chrystal output, can provide an on-off suply straight to the indy-bulbs.

No moving part, and fixed timing independent of load, provided its within the device rating.

Used one of these from these people a few times:

https://i.ebayimg.com/t/2-Pin-LED-Flasher-Relay-Unit-Fix-Indicator-Flash-Rate-/00/$(KGrHqR,!iYE3dK4GflJBOKbvWmmYw~~0_12.JPG[/img]

Can carry up to 10A which means you can run LEDs or Tungsten bulbs off it, probvided you don't run more than 120w total at 12v... ie four 30w bulbs at the same time.... I doubt the Chally has 35w indies, and even more it will flash all four together!

BUT I have blown a couple. They dont like reverse voltage, or taking the entire current of the main igition switched live feed! Whoops!

Suspect they may not like potential over-voltage if the chally isn't well regulated or damped, either...

Is it a simple zenner regulator on them?

If so, reason you are blowing flashers MAY be that the regulator is fried.

Zenner Diode is a fancy diode, that 'sort' of works backwards,and lets current flow through it, but resists over a certain voltage... Until they get too hot, for too long and burn out.......

So tackling the indies and the bit that keeps blowing, you could be tackling the symptom, not the cause.....
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[Fizzer Thou]

Do not get too mixed up about solenoids and relays.A solenoid switches much higher current loads,which is why they are used for starter motor circuits.You would not need the complexity of a solenoid to switch indicators.Besides which,a solenoid has a spring wound around the big contactor and is only meant to bridge the internal contacts for as long as the starter button is pressed.

With an indicator relay,you are switching quite small amounts of current in order to pass the power to the indicators themselves.The relay itself will have a load specification,so if one of the bulbs was to go open circuit (filament blows) the other one will flash faster.
Basically,an indicator works using a magnetic field to pull a contactor to make the circuit to pass the power to the bulbs.Once a storage device (called a capacitor) inside the relay has discharged,power to the bulbs is disconnected because the magentic field collapses and the contactor is pulled apart by the spring.The cycle is then repeated until you switch off the power going to the relay ie.turn the switch or cancel the indicators.
A heavier specification relay is used for switching headlight bulbs.Sometimes the contactor itself can burn out because of arcing or sparking,which can corrode the surface of the contactor.This also happens on fuel pump and ignition points,but that is another subject.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=indicator+relay&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHUJ_enGB500GB500&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=n-ZSUJOOJ6W80QWT-YGgDA&ved=0CCgQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=677

Question. Is the indicator relay for your Chaly rated for 12v or 6v?
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Just talk bikes.What else is there?

Always have a 'Plan B'

[binge]

All 12v. Bulbs, genny and reg, battery, and flasher.
The bulbs are infact 10watt 245 items.
Uikely the flasher has cooked from the draw current then as it was rated at 30something. Must be as teflon stated, a problem with the output from the reg.
Now it did blow with the bigger reg fitted. Not the smaller one i currently have.
Think im gonna change over to LED bulbs and get an LED flasher. Will aid the recharge on the battery too as the reg aint up to much with the lights on.

[Fizzer Thou]

If you are using 10w bulbs you will draw less current than if you were to use say 21w bulbs.If the relay was rated for 30w it should not burn out.But if the voltage being supplied to the relay was higher than say 13v it should not burn the relay contacts out.

An over-voltage system is easily measured.What is the voltage across the battery at tickover and with the revs increased?If the voltage is rising to say 25vdc then I would suspect the regulator.What is the AC voltage coming out of the alternator across any two windings?About 25vac?Is the voltage regulator separate to the rectifier?
____________________
Just talk bikes.What else is there?

Always have a 'Plan B'

[sickpup]

[Islander]

[Raffles]

[binge]

Cheers for clearing that up. Got an idea of how they work now.

Regarding my setup. The generator is healthy and kicks out more than enough power to the Reg/rec.
The reg/rec, I have two. One has 5 wires, so I dont really know how to wire it in.
The 4 wire one, wired in correctly, gives about 7v at tickover (Low I know!) But once it's over 2k RPM, it fluctuates between 12v and 13v.

The small battery I am currently using will only take charge if the headlights are off (Sidelights are perm on anyway). So I've changed over to LED tail light, and swapping to LED sidelight bulb too.

I've gone with LED indicator bulbs now, and bought an LED flasher unit too.
So during the day, my battery should be able to lap up the charge for when I use the headlight (Which is a 35w halogen).





Ben