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Spudly
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 Posted: 18:03 - 01 Oct 2012  Post subject: National Minimum Wage |
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Just saw on the news that the National Minimum Wage has gone up by a whole 11p an hour.
Over a week, thats a whole £4.40 inceease. Over a year, £228.80.
Gosh, what will everyone do with their new found wealth?
Oh yeah, pay the already increased VAT and any of the other strength sapping stealth taxes this bastard government shafts us with, without the benefit of lubrication.
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Raffles
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| Posted: 21:38 - 01 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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In January 2011 VAT was increased from 17.5% to 20%. In October of the same year the National Minimum Wage (NMW) was also increased by 2.5%.
This year there has not been a general increase in VAT though NMW has today been increased by 1.8%.
By my reckoning, NMW earners are quids-in 
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Alpha-9
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| Posted: 10:39 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Raffles wrote: | | Alpha-9 wrote: | Tenants having to pay council tax instead of the homeowner is a fucking con. |
How so? |
Because people renting a property have to pay tax on a house they don't own and are already paying a premium to rent, it should be included with the rent IMO which I think it used to be, we should pay for the services, not on the rate of the value of the house we don't own. Then there was community charge which everyone rioted about and marge thatch quit over, rename it council tax and everyone's on board suddenly. You've got me on the wiki now...
| Quote: | Critics also claim that Council Tax has a disproportionate impact on renters, or those occupying part-owned social housing. They are paying tax according to the value of a property that they may not have been able to afford to buy or even rent at market rate.
Equally, the tax isn't actually particularly proportionate even to property values. A band H property will pay at most three times as a band A, even though the value of the property may be ten or more times higher. |
Just annoyed at the govt.
Like TV licensing, they sent us a letter saying to pay for a TV license. Don't have a digital TV, dont watch live TV, hate TV. Said we don't need one, now they might show up at our house at some point to check we're not lying? Fuck off.
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Spudly
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Posted: 11:25 - 02 Oct 2012  Post subject: |
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What boils my piss the most about this is that the increase isn't in line with the accepted cost of living indicators.
Inflation for example was 2.5% in August. In September last year, it was 5.2%.
The Retail Prices Index, which measures slightly different things to the Consumer Prices Index, has inflation at 2.9% in September.
To be generous and take the lower figure, we are seeing costs rise at 2.5%.
Why then is the NMW rising by only 1.8 percent? Surely the rate of increase should be tied to the accepted rate of inflation?
The whole purpose of the NMW is to ensure that someone working in a low paid job has - at a bare minimum - the ability to live.
If the NMW isn't linked to inflation, the average bloke doesn't have a hope of dealing with life. Shit gets more expensive, he goes into debt, can't pay the bills, gets fucked over, turns to petty crime.
More complicated than that, but thats the general progression.
Edit: failing at maths
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Last edited by Spudly on 14:29 - 02 Oct 2012; edited 1 time in total |
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Spudly
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Posted: 14:47 - 02 Oct 2012  Post subject: |
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| daemonoid wrote: | | awrowe wrote: | What boils my piss the most about this is that the increase isn't in line with the accepted cost of living indicators. |
Of course not everyone's going to appreciate it, but that's the more, more, more mentality for you... If you don't like earning minimum wage then start a business, learn a trade, get a promotion or just switch jobs. |
Interesting, I hadn't looked at it from that perspective.
I'm prepared to have my opinion changed by those sorts of figures. My original moan wasn't just related to the NMW though, it also encompassed the other areas I believe this government - and just about every government since before Thatcher - has failed on.
Why is it that someone can work full time, even at above NMW levels, yet still need things like Working Tax Credits, Child Tax Credits, Council Tax Benefit and the stream of incidental benefits that are there for the taking, just so he can live very modestly.
A few years ago, as part of an OU finance course, I calculated that with my circumstances as they were, I eould have to be earning a poofteenth over £35k in order to get out from the benefit/tax credits umbrella.
What is even more ridiculous is that a lot of these tax credits and benefits go straight back to the tax man in the form of fuel duties, VAT and the rest of the little stealth taxes.
See if you can figure out how many times you are taxed on the same quid?
Edit: I'm no longer working on NMW, but I have done and it sucked.
Not earning anything like enough to escape being beholden to my own taxes though.
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angryjonny
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| Posted: 14:57 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| awrowe wrote: | See if you can figure out how many times you are taxed on the same quid? |
It isn't just my tax. I pay 0% or 20% or 32% or 40% tax/NI depending on which particular pound you consider, then council tax, fuel duty, road tax, stamp duty, booze-duty, 20% VAT on almost everything and so on.
Then of what's left a sizeable chunk goes to pay the wages of the people who manufacture, import, transport and sell me things and perform the services I require. They then pay 0% or 20% or 32% or 40% tax/NI depending on which particular pound you consider, then council tax, fuel duty, road tax, stamp duty, booze-duty, 20% VAT on almost everything.
Then of what's left of that a sizeable chunk goes to pay the wages of the people who manufacture, import, transport and sell them things and perform the services they require. They then pay 0% or 20% or 32% or 40% tax/NI depending... you get the idea.
Of what you earn, apart from that which disappears out of the country, almost every penny will pass through the exchequer's grubby hands. |
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Spudly
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| Posted: 15:14 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| angryjonny wrote: | | awrowe wrote: | See if you can figure out how many times you are taxed on the same quid? |
It isn't just my tax. I pay 0% or 20% or 32% or 40% tax/NI depending on which particular pound you consider, then council tax, fuel duty, road tax, stamp duty, booze-duty, 20% VAT on almost everything and so on.
Then of what's left a sizeable chunk goes to pay the wages of the people who manufacture, import, transport and sell me things and perform the services I require. They then pay 0% or 20% or 32% or 40% tax/NI depending on which particular pound you consider, then council tax, fuel duty, road tax, stamp duty, booze-duty, 20% VAT on almost everything.
Then of what's left of that a sizeable chunk goes to pay the wages of the people who manufacture, import, transport and sell them things and perform the services they require. They then pay 0% or 20% or 32% or 40% tax/NI depending... you get the idea.
Of what you earn, apart from that which disappears out of the country, almost every penny will pass through the exchequer's grubby hands. |
Understood. But look at it from the perspective of a single entrant in the game you describe.
Take the total cost of ownership on a vehicle as an example. Lets say it costs a total of £5000 to run. Thats an unrealistic figure, but uts an example, it doesnt have to be real.
Take just one of those pounds and calculate how much of it goes towards tax. For a start, remove whatever percentage is applicable for your tax bracket.
Take another 20% off for VAT.
Now calculate road tax and fuel duty. Any other taxes I've forgotten about.
Not much left of that quid.
Now, multiply that through the various levels you mentioned.
The same pound is spent several times, in all likelihood.
I don't have a problem paying tax, so long as the tax is spent properly and gathered fairly.
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daemonoid
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| Posted: 15:21 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| awrowe wrote: | Interesting, I hadn't looked at it from that perspective.
I'm prepared to have my opinion changed by those sorts of figures. My original moan wasn't just related to the NMW though, it also encompassed the other areas I believe this government - and just about every government since before Thatcher - has failed on. |
Wow, one in a million bcfer! You don't get many of your sort round here
| awrowe wrote: | Why is it that someone can work full time, even at above NMW levels, yet still need things like Working Tax Credits, Child Tax Credits, Council Tax Benefit and the stream of incidental benefits that are there for the taking, just so he can live very modestly.
A few years ago, as part of an OU finance course, I calculated that with my circumstances as they were, I eould have to be earning a poofteenth over £35k in order to get out from the benefit/tax credits umbrella.
What is even more ridiculous is that a lot of these tax credits and benefits go straight back to the tax man in the form of fuel duties, VAT and the rest of the little stealth taxes.
See if you can figure out how many times you are taxed on the same quid?
Edit: I'm no longer working on NMW, but I have done and it sucked.
Not earning anything like enough to escape being beholden to my own taxes though. |
I completely agree about the tax credits, if taxes weren't so high then there would be no need to hand some of it back to those who really need it. I suspect the reason they don't lower the taxes to compensate is down to the number of people who could be on tax credits who don't bother claiming. Those who don't claim who would be better off probably save way more than the cost of administering the tax credits scheme.
The only bit I'd take exception to is "living very modestly" - £35k allowed me to buy a nice starter home, have a motorbike and a 'sports' car, go on holiday multiple times a year and buy anything I wanted really as well as save a decent amount. Unless you have a bucket load of kids then £35k is rather nice! If you do have a bucket load of kids then fine, your choice, but kids cost money and you forego one thing for another.
However, all the people who I know on benefits/tax credits have more TVs than me, can afford a car, have more kids and generally do well out of the deal. I'd like to see tax credits increased and benefits reduced.
The expectation that people have for a "modest living" is not the same as I would consider "modest", multiple TVs, the top internet/TV package, a litter of children, cars to take the kids 5 mins to school and more toys/gadgets than you know what to do with are not my idea of living modestly, yet I know people who can live like this with minimal work.
I know you want to step away from NMW, but it relates back to the whole thing. NMW is cost to employers, they pay lots of extra tax to employ people that increases along with wages. Increasing NMW above global inflation makes us less competitive on a global scale essentially harming everyone (including those employees). The gov's way of fixing things in this area is to top up the wages via tax credits, it takes the burden off much needed businesses.
Jobs and growth are the key to the economy, as you spotted all money paid to employees is taxed over and over. They'll get their pound of flesh one way or another.
</lots of random thoughts>
tl;dr as you can see from my ramblings everything is an interconnected web of confusion. Benefits and tax are broken, but so are expectations. I don't know the solution, and I don't think there is an easy one.
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Spudly
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Spudly
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| Posted: 16:05 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| daemonoid wrote: |
Wow, one in a million bcfer! You don't get many of your sort round here |
If you have a few minutes, have a look at Tim Minchin - Storm it illustrates fairly well my stance on having an open mind.
| daemonoid wrote: |
The only bit I'd take exception to is "living very modestly" - £35k allowed me to buy a nice starter home, have a motorbike and a 'sports' car, go on holiday multiple times a year and buy anything I wanted really as well as save a decent amount. Unless you have a bucket load of kids then £35k is rather nice! If you do have a bucket load of kids then fine, your choice, but kids cost money and you forego one thing for another.
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The difficulty is, getting that £35k. I work full time as a web developer in (it has to be said) ruralish Northumberland. I'm £20k short. Believe me when I tell you I agree, £35k would be rather nice.
Moving isn't an option, for various practical reasons on one idealistic one, which of course is "why the fuck should I have to?"
| daemonoid wrote: |
However, all the people who I know on benefits/tax credits have more TVs than me, can afford a car, have more kids and generally do well out of the deal. I'd like to see tax credits increased and benefits reduced.
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I agree, however I would go further and insist people on the dole spent three days a week cleaning the streets and doing all the little jobs the council reckons it can't afford to do. Clearing drainage ditches would be favourite at the moment I think.
| daemonoid wrote: |
The expectation that people have for a "modest living" is not the same as I would consider "modest", multiple TVs, the top internet/TV package, a litter of children, cars to take the kids 5 mins to school and more toys/gadgets than you know what to do with are not my idea of living modestly, yet I know people who can live like this with minimal work.
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To me, modest living is being able to respond to an emergency trip to the vets without the bill impacting on the weekly menu.
| daemonoid wrote: |
I know you want to step away from NMW, but it relates back to the whole thing. NMW is cost to employers, they pay lots of extra tax to employ people that increases along with wages. Increasing NMW above global inflation makes us less competitive on a global scale essentially harming everyone (including those employees). The gov's way of fixing things in this area is to top up the wages via tax credits, it takes the burden off much needed businesses.
Jobs and growth are the key to the economy, as you spotted all money paid to employees is taxed over and over. They'll get their pound of flesh one way or another.
</lots of random thoughts>
tl;dr as you can see from my ramblings everything is an interconnected web of confusion. Benefits and tax are broken, but so are expectations. I don't know the solution, and I don't think there is an easy one. |
There is no easy solution, but I firmly and probably ignorantly believe there are rules of thumb which need to be adopted.
No business is too big to fail. If a bank looks like failing because of irresponsible speculation, then it fails.
If for some reason a bank is bailed out, that company doesn't post a fucking profit till every penny of the bailout amount has been paid back, at the same rate of interest as the bank charges on its credit card. Corporate personhood comes at a price.
That's my rage speaking there, I know that's unrealistic.
I do have issue with one thing you said though and it's something which bothers me a lot.
You say jobs and growth are the key, but I would disagree. Jobs, yes, but not endless growth. Endless financial growth isn't just unrealistic, it's unhealthy, not just economically, but from the perspective of society and community as well in my humble opinion.
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daemonoid
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| Posted: 16:33 - 02 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| awrowe wrote: | I do have issue with one thing you said though and it's something which bothers me a lot.
You say jobs and growth are the key, but I would disagree. Jobs, yes, but not endless growth. Endless financial growth isn't just unrealistic, it's unhealthy, not just economically, but from the perspective of society and community as well in my humble opinion. |
[edit] good points about the banks, but their profits are being used to bolster the stock market - which also needs a helping hand
Unfortunately capitalism doesn't work without growth - political models will have to change soon to accommodate a more even spread of wealth across the world.
Growth is required if we want to continue the lifestyles we're all used to. Growth is a necessity in the current world, it'd be nice if it wasn't, but Utopia is a long time away...
At a minimum the UK's gdp should grow in line with population. It's not doing, that means same amount of money for more people, hence royally screwed!
This is a big part of why the UK is in such troubles at the moment. If you look at the rest of the world you'll notice that in general countries that we exploited to prop up our lavish western lifestyles are all climbing up at astonishing rates. This is the 90% of the world taking back from the rich 10% that is us in the west, it's gonna hurt, but even NMW with no tax credits is more in real terms than so many people get.
I'm kind of waffling again, but growth is the key to our lifestyles; I agree relying on growth is silly - not every country can grow. But you can't have it both ways, either growth and lifestyle improvements or no growth and things have to get worse...
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